19-11-2004 21:28									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Since the fox's have no remaining natural preditors what's going to keep their population in check now? It will just go through boom and bust cycles as they over bred then starve then over bred then starve.

Which is actually the natural order of things anyway. Nothing in nature is truly stable, it's all oscillations around an average.

	19-11-2004 21:41									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes it is. There is an exact, qualitative difference between a self-aware being and a non-self-aware being. There is no "degree" of self-awareness.

Besides the fact that the general consensus in biology is that there are "degrees" of self-awareness, I'd be interested to know on what basis you can be so certain about which organisms are and are not self aware. It's practically impossible to test empirically.

	19-11-2004 21:45									#93
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If Fox Hunting's banned here what's Ted Striker going to do in the bars of Britain?

	19-11-2004 21:47									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's completely disingenuous, and you know it (or if you don't, you haven't been reading my posts). I could build a robot that writhed and howled in what looked like pain when you started breaking it. I could make it so fantastically complicated that it even looked like a person. It would not, however, actually be feeling pain; it would be triggering motors and speakers whenever certain electrical sensors were triggered. It's exactly the same way with foxes. With humans, however, our thoughts are so complex that they actually give rise to self-awareness. This is obvious, since you know you are self-aware, and that your brain is practically similar to other humans' brains, so other humans ought to be self-aware too. In addition, there are other people who have spoken of the concept of self-awareness without you telling them about it first, and the most reasonable conclusion is that they have actually experienced it, to know of it.* There is no difference between the fox's pain and a plant growing towards the light. Neither involve consciousness, all are just fantastically complicated but NOT self-aware machines responding to stimuli. (* Turing proposed the "polite convention" that anything that claims it is self-aware, is actually self-aware, since all evidence for sentience in another being, even another person, is by nature circumstantial.)

you could say the same thing about me breaking all your bones. It's just a response to phsyical stimuli. The fox feels the same pain you do. It fears the same thing you do when being chased by dogs.

As for self awareness. Some of the more complex primates (orangutanes ore chimpanzees I beleive) are caple of self awareness. They are able to recognize their own reflection in a mirror (something lesser primates cannot do).

And new evidence is coming out that even fish feel pain.

	19-11-2004 21:47									#95
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If Fox Hunting's banned here what's Ted Striker going to do in the bars of Britain?

Join you hunting dogs?

	19-11-2004 21:48									#96
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Touché - you ****er.

	19-11-2004 21:57									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Besides the fact that the general consensus in biology is that there are "degrees" of self-awareness, I'd be interested to know on what basis you can be so certain about which organisms are and are not self aware. It's practically impossible to test empirically.

You obviously haven't been reading my posts. For one, it's not really a biological question at all, it's a philisophical one (and I'd love you to find a cite for a biologist claiming degrees of sentience - it seems perfectly clear to me that either you actually are aware, or you are not). For another, I said that all evidence for the sentience of another being is circumstantial, but that we have the polite convention of believing anything that claims it is self-aware (and that you can extrapolate from your own sentience to other humans' sentience, because we have practically similar brains).

	19-11-2004 21:59									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Newsflash: pain is the response to a stimulus happening to our nervous system. The human people who have a dysfunctional nervous system will sometimes not feel the pain of a skin-burn, or of a rampant disease.

Newsflash: pain is the feeling - the awareness - of certain nerves firing.

What distinguishes the "pain" of a fox from the "pain" of a tree?

	19-11-2004 22:02									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you could say the same thing about me breaking all your bones. It's just a response to phsyical stimuli. The fox feels the same pain you do. It fears the same thing you do when being chased by dogs. *snip* And new evidence is coming out that even fish feel pain.

We already know fish feel pain like foxes do. What's different between the pain of a fish or a fox and the pain of a tree? The fact that a tree's pain is not conveyed in the form of electrical impulses?

What's the difference between the "pain" of a fox and the "pain" of the robot I mentioned earlier, that howls and writhes on the ground when certain inputs are detected (like when the casing breaks)?

The *snipped* part:

quote: As for self awareness. Some of the more complex primates (orangutanes ore chimpanzees I beleive) are caple of self awareness. They are able to recognize their own reflection in a mirror (something lesser primates cannot do).

That has nothing to do with self-awareness. Recognizing yourself in the mirror is not a test of sentience.

	19-11-2004 22:04									#100
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there is no difference.

the point is pain hurts.

you don't like being hurt. and I doubt the fox likes being hurt.

	19-11-2004 22:04									#101
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quote: Newsflash: pain is the feeling - the awareness - of certain nerves firing. What distinguishes the "pain" of a fox from the "pain" of a tree?

A brain that feels it, or is aware of it.

	19-11-2004 22:05									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What distinguishes the "pain" of a fox from the "pain" of a tree?

That a fox has sensitive nerves and a brain to interpret their signals?

	19-11-2004 22:07									#103
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd A brain that feels it, or is aware of it.

Foxes aren't aware of pain. Their brains sense it as an input, but is your basis or morality now defined based solely on the chemical mechanism by which the organism processes information? If I created a brain with five neurons, would it be equally protected? And by the way, fetuses have a brain. Are you absolutely against abortion as soon as any nervous tissue develops?

	19-11-2004 22:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That a fox has sensitive nerves and a brain to interpret their signals?

See above wrt chemistry.

	19-11-2004 22:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident there is no difference. the point is pain hurts. you don't like being hurt. and I doubt the fox likes being hurt.

Trees don't like being hurt either, then. No plant does. Therefore, eating plants is evil too. We should starve ourselves to death.

	19-11-2004 22:11									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Trees don't like being hurt either, then. No plant does. Therefore, eating plants is evil too. We should starve ourselves to death.

Rhetorical fallacy alert

	19-11-2004 22:11									#107
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If a tree had a nervous system, we'd treat it like a fox for the purposes of pain. However, it doesn't. Obviously, you idiot.

	19-11-2004 22:14									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Rhetorical fallacy alert

No fallacy there, except what results from HIS logic.

	19-11-2004 22:14									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie If a tree had a nervous system, we'd treat it like a fox for the purposes of pain. However, it doesn't. Obviously, you idiot.

See AGAIN wrt chemistry!

****er.

	19-11-2004 22:14									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Foxes aren't aware of pain.

Then why do they avoid it?

How can it be merely an input if they go through measures to prevent it from happening - to prevent it from being 'input' in the first place?

	19-11-2004 22:15									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker See above wrt chemistry.

Did so.

And once again, your case (that human pain is different from animal pain, that human pain is somehow not reaction to external stimuli) is completely unconvicning.

I have the impression that your opinion generally lies on the idea that either you're an intelligent (or "sentient", or "self-aware" or whatever) species, or you're a species stuck in repeating hardcoded chemical routines.

	19-11-2004 22:16									#112
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Then why do they avoid it?

Because they are a fantastically complex machine designed to react in a certain way to certain stimuli. It is not aware of the pain, in the sense of self-awareness. A robot that backs up and turns around when it hits something does not feel pain when it hits an object. It is not aware of pain. It simply senses an input.

	19-11-2004 22:17									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Foxes aren't aware of pain. Their brains sense it as an input, but is your basis or morality now defined based solely on the chemical mechanism by which the organism processes information? If I created a brain with five neurons, would it be equally protected? And by the way, fetuses have a brain. Are you absolutely against abortion as soon as any nervous tissue develops?

I am against abortion, but that's besides the point.

	19-11-2004 22:18									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Did so. And once again, your case (that human pain is different from animal pain, that human pain is somehow not reaction to external stimuli) is completely unconvicning. I have the impression that your opinion generally lies on the idea that either you're an intelligent (or "sentient", or "self-aware" or whatever) species, or you're a species stuck in repeating hardcoded chemical routines.

There's no other option. In both cases you are stuck on repeating hardcoded chemical routines, but in one case it's no more wrong to inflict "pain" on the animal than on a Lego robot, whereas in the other case it is wrong, because the animal is aware of the pain. Those animals are sentient.

	19-11-2004 22:18									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I am against abortion, but that's besides the point.

Not at all. Fetuses are animals. And I was responding to Ludd.

	19-11-2004 22:22									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Then why do they avoid it? Because they are a fantastically complex machine designed to react in a certain way to certain stimuli. It is not aware of the pain, in the sense of self-awareness.

What stimuli? It reacts to pain without feeling it - it anticipates it and avoids it - because it is aware of it.


You can say that all life forms are "fantastic machines" only reacting on stimulis, but how does this make foxes any different than humans?

	19-11-2004 22:23									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker See AGAIN wrt chemistry! ****er.

Sorry, your argument is utterly stupid, even if you do mention chemistry and robots. Humans repeat hardcoded chemical reactions as much as animals do, the concept of awarness has no qualitative bearing on the result.

Beating (Or, let's say, causing pain towards) babies or the mentally-handicapped is still wrong, and they still feel the pain, for example, even if they aren't completely "aware" of what is going on.

	19-11-2004 22:24									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker There's no other option. In both cases you are stuck on repeating hardcoded chemical routines, but in one case it's no more wrong to inflict "pain" on the animal than on a Lego robot, whereas in the other case it is wrong, because the animal is aware of the pain. Those animals are sentient.

Please prove me, then, why the lack of self-awareness would be the same as thelack of sentience. You have done that bold assertion, but I haven't seen anything that backs it.

Remeber, you have defined self-awareness as such: any being that can say is aware of itself, is in fact self-aware.

	19-11-2004 22:24									#119
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quote: What stimuli? It reacts to pain without feeling it - it anticipates it and avoids it - because it is aware of it. You can say that all life forms are "fantastic machines" only reacting on stimulis, but how does this make foxes any different than humans?

Because humans are self-aware. We feel the pain. I could build a robot, out of Legos even and with a very simple processor and code, that had a laser rangefinder and a touch sensor. It would avoid feeling "pain" (the touch sensor) by stopping when the laser rangefinder said it was a certain distance from an object. According to you, this would have equal moral worth with a fox.

	19-11-2004 22:24									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Then why do they avoid it? Because they are a fantastically complex machine designed to react in a certain way to certain stimuli.

Foxes are designed?

By whom or what?

"Pain is far more complex, and understanding it requires an open mind and a sympathetic attitude. Pain does not behave in predictable and consistent patterns that can be reduced to simple formulae. Nor does it respond identically to similar treatments in different patients. It is affected by the patient's mind - though that does not mean it is "in the mind" in the sense that some arrogant physicians occasionally hint to distraught sufferers.

As a striking example of the mind's effect on the experience of pain, the book shows a photo of President Ronald Reagan seconds after he had been shot in the chest (1981). In the emergency of the attempted assassination, Reagan's unconscious mind gave priority to escape and his face displays alertness rather than agony. Not until he was safely on his way to hospital did the President report the pain, which proved that a bullet had entered his body.

This mental feat is not exclusive to humans, as is demonstrated by another picture showing a racehorse winning the 1980 Epsom Derby 150 yards after he broke a leg.

Pain is a necessary response to illness or injury, but it is neither simple nor automatic. The body's control systems, whether human or animal, are able to edit internal nerve messages to suit the over-riding demands of survival. Complex over-ride systems of this kind may well be implicated in the unpredictability of pain."

http://www.writersite.co.uk/Articles/Pain_W.htm