24-11-2004 23:04									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie You shouldn't give Creationists ammo to whine about being personally attacked. Plus they aren't mutually exclusive entirely- I have a biochemist friend doing a PhD who believes in Creationism. Just imagine that- someone of PH's calibre belieiving in Creationism

how the hell? I can understand how most people can believe creationism because it's convenient and belief or disbelief doesn't actually effect decision making on a practical day to day level. But a biochemist? Who would give him a PHD with his beliefs? How can someone exist with that level of cognitive dissonance?

	24-11-2004 23:05									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Imperial College.

Then he cheated on the tests.

Creationism and intelligence simply cannot exist in the same person.

	24-11-2004 23:11									#123
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Oh come on, get a grip. It's certain that he believes in Creationism as a result of his upbringing, but to insult his intelligence and integrity or suggest that someone should not be allowed to earn a PhD because of their religious beliefs is just not on.

	24-11-2004 23:15									#124
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quote: Yes it was.

No because while the evidence pointed the way of evolution, we had no idea of how it really worked.

DNA made it as close to a certainty as you could want.

	24-11-2004 23:21									#125
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Bottom line: Creationists and Evolutionists are equally intelligent on average. We are all human and we all have the same capacity for learning. What makes the difference is our upbringing and where we get our education. This has the greatest influence on what we believe.

	24-11-2004 23:28									#126
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I know lots of PhD's who believe in creationism (in various forms).

	24-11-2004 23:34									#127
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I know lots of PhD's who believe in creationism (in various forms).

Yes, I know one. The pastor of my church has a PhD.

	24-11-2004 23:35									#128
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Does anyone here besides me know that half of all scientists are creationists? 'Tis true.

	24-11-2004 23:38									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Bottom line: Creationists and Evolutionists are equally intelligent on average. We are all human and we all have the same capacity for learning. What makes the difference is our upbringing and where we get our education. This has the greatest influence on what we believe.

Can you realistically name any place outside of Bob Jones University where a higher education causes even more belief in creationism? I think education almost universally increases acceptance of evolution. This of course is not because evolution is a bias but because evolution is the reasoned position on the processes of life. For something to be bias it would have to be unreasoned, which would preclude evolution.

	24-11-2004 23:40									#130
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I am biased - towards truth.

	24-11-2004 23:43									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Does anyone here besides me know that half of all scientists are creationists? 'Tis true.

I know your just joking, but it's interesting to look at the stats anyway. Check out
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm

quote: The follow-up study reported in "Nature" reveals that the rate of belief is lower than eight decades ago. The latest survey involved 517 members of the National Academy of Sciences; half replied. When queried about belief in "personal god," only 7% responded in the affirmative, while 72.2% expressed "personal disbelief," and 20.8% expressed "doubt or agnosticism." Belief in the concept of human immortality, i.e. life after death declined from the 35.2% measured in 1914 to just 7.9%. 76.7% reject the "human immortality" tenet, compared with 25.4% in 1914, and 23.2% claimed "doubt or agnosticism" on the question, compared with 43.7% in Leuba's original measurement. Again, though, the highest rate of belief in a god was found among mathematicians (14.3%), while the lowest was found among those in the life sciences fields -- only 5.5%.

	24-11-2004 23:44									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Yes, I know one. The pastor of my church has a PhD.

I'll rephrase. I know lots of PhD-level scientists working in biomedical research who believe in creationism (in various forms).

	24-11-2004 23:44									#133
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo I'm not. But you have to admit that there was a particularly large concentration of communists in the USSR at the time. And Lysenko and his lackeys rejected medelian genetics because they thought it conflicted with the communist world view.

Indeed. Of course, eventually, USSR politicians stopped backing Lysenka and sane mendelian genetics took hold.

	24-11-2004 23:46									#134
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There's creationism and then there's creationism, as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand intelligent people believing in God, and believing that God created the universe... and that things kinda went from there, possibly with God tinkering along the way.

I cannot understand an intelligent person who believes that everything we see around us was created exactly this way by God ~6000 yrs ago.

-Arrian

	24-11-2004 23:47									#135
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quote: I know lots of PhD's who believe in creationism (in various forms).

In other words, they believe in God and they believe he wilfully created the Universe? Most people who believe in God believe something like that. But I sure hope they don't believe the fundamentalist version of creationism, which is the bible account.

	24-11-2004 23:48									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides Can you realistically name any place outside of Bob Jones University where a higher education causes even more belief in creationism? I think education almost universally increases acceptance of evolution. This of course is not because evolution is a bias but because evolution is the reasoned position on the processes of life. For something to be bias it would have to be unreasoned, which would preclude evolution.

Well, let's put it this way:

Let's see. It takes about 700 people to get a scientific result in a poll, right? Beyond that, there is not much room for any statistical differences.

If someone were to take three groups of 700 people each (that's 2100 people altogether), one group would be all creationists, one group would be all evolutionists and the other was all theistic evolutionists.

Now, let's suppose that the IQs of those 2100 people were tested. I bet that if the IQs in each group of people were averaged together you would find that they are the same for each group.

	24-11-2004 23:50									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides I know your just joking, but it's interesting to look at the stats anyway. Check out http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm

I am not going to believe something from an atheist website. That information would be undoubtedly biased. You best stick with third-party sources.

	24-11-2004 23:53									#138
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On the topic of bright people who are religious, here is the testimony of the philosopher Hilary Putnam, who's IQ is sky high:

quote: Those who know my writings from that period may wonder how I reconciled my religious streak, which existed to some extent even back then, and my general scientific materialist worldview at the time. The answer is that I didn't reconcile them. I was a thoroughgoing atheist, and I was a believer. I simply kept these two parts of myself separate.

	24-11-2004 23:54									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Bottom line: Creationists and Evolutionists are equally intelligent on average. We are all human and we all have the same capacity for learning. What makes the difference is our upbringing and where we get our education. This has the greatest influence on what we believe.

If you are intelligent you can overcome your education/religious brainwashing and come to a more reasonable opinion.

	24-11-2004 23:54									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Yes, I know one. The pastor of my church has a PhD.

Doctorate of Divinity doesn't count.

	24-11-2004 23:55									#141
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Philosopher. :q;

	24-11-2004 23:55									#142
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo On the topic of bright people who are religious, here is the testimony of the philosopher Hilary Putnam, who's IQ is sky high:

Heh. Yeah, that's another option. Just ignore the inconsistencies.

I'd wager, however, that such a person isn't the sort to go off on and damn fool crusades in the name of God.

-Arrian

	24-11-2004 23:55									#143
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo On the topic of bright people who are religious, here is the testimony of the philosopher Hilary Putnam, who's IQ is sky high:

All the quote says is that he's good at maintaining two completely contradictory worldviews by ignoring the contradictions. He's in denial.

	24-11-2004 23:56									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Well, let's put it this way: Let's see. It takes about 700 people to get a scientific result in a poll, right? Beyond that, there is not much room for any statistical differences. If someone were to take three groups of 700 people each (that's 2100 people altogether), one group would be all creationists, one group would be all evolutionists and the other was all theistic evolutionists. Now, let's suppose that the IQs of those 2100 people were tested. I bet that if the IQs in each group of people were averaged together you would find that they are the same for each group.

I'm not disagreeing with that, (at least until I find a scientific survey that shows otherwise). Education and IQ are only weakly correlated. However, in general the more educated the person is the more likely he'll believe in evolution. Instead of saying that this a bias of education, I think it's indicative of the fact evolution is the correct theory as far as science is concerned. University aren't suppose to be "neutral" when it comes to how science works. It suppose to what theorys work in explaining natural phenomenon and if it has time teach a little on what other theories were discarded and why.

	24-11-2004 23:59									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy I am not going to believe something from an atheist website. That information would be undoubtedly biased. You best stick with third-party sources.

The survey was originally published in the magazine Nature, and I've read about it elsewhere as well, I believe Scientific American had an article on it. I'll try to find another reference to the survey from elsewhere if you don't believe that one.

	25-11-2004 00:00									#147
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Doctorate of Divinity doesn't count.

A Doctorate's of Divinity is just as difficult to get as any other degree and it takes an intelligent person to get one, too, so yes it does count.

And this pastor that I know, my pastor, he is so smart he could be the chief executive of a business. Yes, he is that intelligent.

	25-11-2004 00:01									#148
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Intelligence is ungodly. Thinking is a sin.

	25-11-2004 00:05									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy A Doctorate's of Divinity is just as difficult to get as any other degree and it takes an intelligent person to get one, too, so yes it does count.

It takes an intelligent person not to pursue such a silly degree.

quote: And this pastor that I know, my pastor, he is so smart he could be the chief executive of a business. Yes, he is that intelligent.

Wow! He could get a business degee?

	25-11-2004 00:10									#150
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Ok, how this site which mentions the same survey. There were plenty others, but most of the others you would have dismissed as being "biased"
http://www.astrosociety.org/educati...6/religion.html