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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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This shows the current position of our units. The stack should survive even against a total Lego assault. Current lego forces are (brackets are losses from last turn):
quote:
Legoland forces:
- 2 settler
- 14 worker (-3)
- 3 horsemen (-1)
- 12 Cavalry (-13)
- 91 infantry (+2)
- 62 artillery
- 27 Tanks (+11)
- 6 ironclad (-1 LiB)
- 15 transport
- 9 subs (-2 LiB)
- 9 DD (-1 LiB, +3 B)
- 9 BB
- 1 carrier
- 3 bomber (+1 B)
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Lego will probably have 40 tanks available next turn assuming they use their remaining Cavs for rush builds. They can either use them in a mass attack or... use them for defense which is quite likely also. GS invasion forces are 70 tanks, 55 Marines, 4 Mech Infs and 22 Infantry. Our force (including next-turn's chained tanks) is 60 tanks, 34 Marines, 42 Infs and 27 Artillery.
The plan:
Simple, build a city with the settler, bring in the tanks and hopefully take either Dye Fields or Jackson, we might even be able to take Legoland if its not defended. This turn neither Legoland nor Castlea were defended by a single unit which means that Lego is placing all their defenders in the threatened cities. By landing only 1 settler maybe they won't think we have extra ones off-shore...
After that there's not really a plan, we need to see how things develop and plan on a turn-by-turn basis. All we know is that our main objectives are Legoland and Jackson. Our bombers can and should try and bomb the crap out of everything possible until we turn Lego into an ancient-era civ again. 
Btw, the more suggestions, the merrier, anyone want to step up as CoW and CALF? 
-MZ
Last edited by Master Zen on 25-11-2004 at 02:59
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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Here's the PM correspondance from CH regarding their intel and the attack:
Part I
quote:
We don't have a spy in GoW, but we can give you Lego's forces this turn. It looks like they attacked you as there's a fort-town next to your stack, protecting the surviving attackers ...
Legoland forces:
- 1 settler (one used for fort Stanwix, next to (former?) GoW stack)
- 17 worker (+3)
- 3 horsemen
- 2 explorer (+2 B)
- 6 Cavalry (-6)
- 94 infantry (+3)
- 62 artillery
- 27 Tanks (+0)
- 6 ironclad
- 15 transport
- 1 carrier
- 8 subs (-2)
- 8 DD (-1)
- 9 BB
- 2 fighter (+2 B)
- 3 bomber
- 1 army (!)
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=16952_1270ADstart.jpg
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=16952_1270ADStanwix.jpg
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Last edited by Master Zen on 08-12-2004 at 17:20
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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Part II
quote:
GoW,
this is, what we can see now, the situation. First of all some non-Lego problem: we are without rubber. Fixing the game diplomaticaly has cancelled our deal. Please send us rubber next turn, as otherwise we're back to building rifles and knights.
Also, it looks like Lego is counting on us to have some cavs ready... while we don't actually intend to build those, would it be possible to send us Mil Trad and saltpeter? Let's keep the threat alive, and them guessing at what to do
screenshot of our area:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=16952_1270ADstart.jpg
The following has happened:
- Lego has pillaged all roads next to our stack including the settler. This was perfectly as expected. As a result, we can only threaten Abilene over land.
- Lego has razed Tipperary. No more threat there.
- Lego is blocking the naval access to Abilene, and Quanto. Both blockades are not perfect, in that we've got a good chance of breaking through if we chain arts to Legoland, and use our transports to attack 1/4 BBs or 1/4 DDs. It would however destroy most of our transport capability to get through, and there is no certain way of success.
- we still have a spy in Legoland, they did not expose him (whether they tried or not is unknown)
Legoland forces:
- 1 settler (one used for fort Stanwix, next to (former?) GoW stack)
- 17 worker (+3)
- 3 horsemen
- 2 explorer (+2 B)
- 6 Cavalry (-6)
- 94 infantry (+3)
- 62 artillery
- 27 Tanks (+0)
- 6 ironclad
- 15 transport
- 1 carrier
- 8 subs (-2)
- 8 DD (-1)
- 9 BB
- 2 fighter (+2 B)
- 3 bomber
- 1 army (!)
On your side, this is what we can currently see:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=16952_1270ADStanwix.jpg
Fort Stanwix obviously was put down to protect blitzing tanks. But more on that later.
We investigated Abilene:
Cost of investigating Abilene: 209 gold.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=16952_1270ADAbilene.jpg
troops:
- 1 army of 3 infs
- 50 infs
- 3 cavs
- 8 art
- 2 bombers.
An army means they did attack you, most likely in force. The number of troops left to Lego also suggests that: if they built another 20-odd tanks, they lost those 20 tanks attacking you. Add this to the surviving tanks, and it would be entirely possible that Lego has at least damaged all your infs, and destroyed (the bigger part of) your tanks present on Legoland.
Fort Stanwix has one major strategic advantage: as long as it exists, you will not be able to build a city in the next tile. Which means that unless it is possible to take the city, your tanks en route can't join the fight this turn.
.. cont
Further, we can assume Lego or Vox has a spy with you, seeing what units you've got waiting. We don't know the precise information, but unless you already have a stack of marines present somewhere, they will know that Dye fields and Jackson can only be attacked by the units you build right now, and 8 at most as you only have 1 possible chainer.
Now it becomes a bit guessing, but given Lego's subs, it is very possible that they even destroyed your 1 TR + 1 DD, and your 4 DD + 1 TR + 1 CV, making chaining impossible for you. This is one of the points where Lego is very right in not giving 'your' battle report before we have played, as it affects the rest in a great way.
Lego knows how many of your tanks remain on Legoland right now. Add to this the amount of marines you can deliver to Legoland this turn through chaining, or landing (they don't know your fleet has no marines, in case you still have some on Bob as of the end of last turn), and they know very precisely what the maximum force is that can attack Jackson or Dye fields. Marines on Legoland can't join the attack if Fort Stanwix is not destroyed.
In short, if all went perfect for Lego, they can make sure Jackson and Dye fields have a perfect defense (even a horse will eat up a marine attack, so Lego only needs 1 horse more then you can deliver marines to both cities). They can use this info, to make sure Fort Stanwix can't be taken (there are already 27 tanks present, and even if those are all 1/4, you will need at least 27 units to capture and destroy it). With Fort Stanwix, Jackson and Dye fields perfectly safe from you, while Abilene is perfectly safe from us, all their other cities can be empty again.
We are of course not certain about this without the battle report. But it seems Lego has played its turn very well, and our combined invasion has hit a major obstacle.
This is only preliminary, we are still debating what to do
next. Going for Quanto would be nice, with a bit of luck we could take that city. But that's only superficial damage, as it would be extremely hard to keep the city next turn. Going for Abilene is out of the question, we maybe could take the city, but only by losing most of our forces, ending the invasion from our side.
The other option is to retreat from your side, and for us to sit it out while you reinforce your troops, RP gets in landing range, and possibly ND could join us.
So, what do you think?
cont ...
Oh, and if you could tell us if you had some more marines, we would appreciate it, as it would make the difference here. If Lego's attack was not so successful, this could be a ruse. You could take Fort Stanwix, and with cavs could even take Legopolis if that's not defended properly. Or Fort Stanwix could be nearly empty, while Lego protects the surrounding cities (all of these options would still make it necessary for them to protect Abilene with 50 infs plus an army, as it basically makes sure we are at least 2 turns from taking our first city)
Update (the above was typed before we decided to investigate Fort Stanwix):
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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Part III (last one)
quote:
Update (the above was typed before we decided to investigate Fort Stanwix):
Investigating Fort Stanwix. Cost: 38g.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...vestigation.jpg
troops:
- 4 2/5 T
- 2 3/5 T
- 3 4/5 T
- 1 3/4 T
- 2 1/4 T
- 20 I
- 29 art
- 3 Cav
- It only is apparant to me now, but Lego has put more forest in the way, here at Legopolis 3 and Dye 47.
- there are 12 damaged tanks in the city. I can only guess that this means the other 15 tanks Lego had were too damaged after their first attack to let them blitz again.
- there is, however, also a 3/4 tank present. Leftover from a pillaging job before? Or a reg one, who blitzed? (most likely the second option)
- Apart from the 15 unaccounted for tanks, there are 21 unaccounted for infs, and 25 arts. Maybe Quanto has a token force, otherwise I'd guess Jackson and Dye both have 7 tanks, 10 infs, 12 arts (+1 to make it even).
- Even if Lego seems to be fairly certain about keeping Fort Stanwix, they aren't 100% certain GoW can't break through (why the forests, unless that's a ruse). Maybe all the tanks have been destroyed (or only few remain), but most of the other forces were not. It is impossible to guess precisely how many units they killed, but we could probably put some maximum and minimum numbers on this.
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Assuming maximum 20 new tanks were built (the max we saw was 26 units in one turn, and they built 3 workers, 2 explorers, 2 fighters, 3 inf), how many units has Lego killed?
Total: 47 tanks, of which 27 survived.
- we know 12 units blitzed and survived. 24 units killed.
- we know 15 units did not blitz and survived. 15 units killed.
- of the other 20, maximally they could have killed one unit each, after which they died in the second attack.
So, maximum of 59 units killed, while the minimum is 39 units. (maybe less of course, if they use full health tanks as defenders. We know a guaranteed kill of 23, simply counting the elites and damaged units.)
There could have been a couple cav kills as well, but I doubt very much Lego has used any of them in an attack.
GoW had 42 I, 16 T, 34 M, 27 Art in their stack. There is no way all of them are gone, somewhere between 92-59 = 33 and 92-23 = 69 units remain. Most likely somewhere in the middle, being some 40 units, partly damaged, with at least an attack rate of 6 (infs). Lego has 35 units in Fort Stanwix.
With the already damaged units of Lego, GoW's 16 (?) bombers and 27 arts, they probably got a good chance of taking Stanwix.
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We currently are discussing options, but there is a good chance that you can do a lot of damage this turn, in case you can take Fort Stanwix. It would mean that you put almost all your remaining troops at risk, including the 27 arts. And it won't change a lot for us: we would feel the full brunt of Lego's attack next turn, without being able to do a lot of damage. Allow us some time to discuss this, and come up with a coherent plan. If your losses are greater than expected, too bad, but otherwise Lego might have given us (well, more precisely you) an opening we've got to exploit. These guys are playing far too well to let any half chances slip.
DeepO
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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More stuff to fathom, from Cort and DeepO:
quote:
Hi MZ,
DeepO was up till 6.30 working on what follows. I have posted my concern about the plan on our forum this morning (step 11 - surely bombard doesn't destroy forest) but DeepO won't see it for a while yet. Anyway - here is the plan ....
-Cort
___________________________
quote:
GoW / MZ,
A situation update, how we are doing.
As already mentioned, we took a calculated risk, chained 8 arts to Legoland, bombarded the 3 BBs blocking our entrance to Quanto, and together with a fighter bombing and a 2/4 DD attacking, we managed to get the BBs down to 1/5, and 2 2/5 BBs. At this point, it seemed certainly worth it to go at it with our transports (11 empties waiting nearby)... we managed to beat the BB stack, and even have 4, possibly 5 transports ready to get troops into Quanto. Right now, we're debating what to do, and this will certainly take another day to get right. What is certain, is that we've got a pretty good idea on where the FP is (at Logville 77774, in case you're interested), and we can get there for sure. That city is gone.
The rest will depend on what we'll encounter. So far, it seems that we can reach at least 4 other cities, maybe even more. We can take Sandonorico, but that's as far up North as we can get. And we can't reach a couple of their Southern, and Eastern most cities. Again, as we don't have their map, we can't say this for sure, but it certainly looks that way.
So, our turn is not over yet, but by taking a risk on those BBs, Lego is going to bleed. We have no intention at all to try to hold on to what we conquer, as it would spread our defenses way too thin. Also, we still have most of Lego's army to worry about, which is still in Abilene. But we were here to damage Lego enough to keep them from ever becoming a player again, and this turn, we are going to do our share to accomplish that. Any further gains (land, resources, etc.) will be decided in the next 5 turns, but we doubt we're going to see the same rush again, or Lego should start to be stupid in how they play (and they most certainly have not done that so far).
But now, on to your side.
About attacking Fort Whatsit ( ). You mention that in case you still have some tanks left, you want to attack the fort. Well, forget about that. You will have enough units left, and with your bombing capacity, you can most likely get most of those units redlined. A marine against a 1/4 inf is a sure kill, so don't think your marines are all of a sudden worthless! We don't think there is any option, you simply will have to push through. You will never have such a chance again. Lego slipped, and if you don't beat them to death, they will recuperate. GS taking out the FP will be nice, but if they lose half of their cities, including nearly all of their core, including their palace and FP, they are dead.
So, now is not the time to think about consolidating your forces: ever single unit you can, should join into the attack. That means every bomber you can spare, every artillery you can spare. If that means exposing your artillery, so that Lego is certain to capture it next turn, so be it. It will be well worth the cost (also to us, as those arties would be turned against us more likely than against you). If this means it is your last turn on Legoland, as Lego can kill all what is left of your invasion force, so be it. It is but a small price to pay. And we're not so far yet, as we've got a plan, which will make it possible for you to have a more or less decent invasion force next turn (or at least the turn thereafter). So please, study this carefully, and tell us what you think.
There are a couple of assumptions here. First one: Lego was not as lucky as they could have been, killing the maximum of your troops (59), leaving only 33 troops in your stack (outside arties). It would be extremly hard for them, though... not only does it mean they succeeded in every single fight, but they would have needed to build 20 units during last turn as well (and as we both pointed out, the number is probably closer to 15, meaning a maximum of 49 units killed)
Furhter, Aeson pointed out something else: tanks, retreating from infs would be kept alive as well. Every tank retreating, distracts another 2 from the maximum. So, we find this a safe assumption: you will have a minimum of 40 units left in your stack, most likely closer to 60.
Assumption 2: Lego has left its cities, which they think you can't reach, empty. Again, this seems logical to assume. Quanto was empty, which we had a direct path of attack to. So why would they leave a door open for us, if they would have closed it for you? Another indication is planting the forests: on our side, one forest was planted, for you two. Indeed, by only using cavs, those forests make no further protection necessary, even if Stanwix would fall. It seems as Lego had overseen the settler blitz method in its defense.
Third assumption: You didn't lose all your possible chainers. But that seems a long stretch, as it means 2 separate stacks have to be destroyed, of at least 6 ships.
Fourth assumption: you don't get the longest strike of bad luck, ever seen in a Civ game (I'm talking 3 tanks in a row losing against a single spear). If that happens, no plan will be any good.
So, the plan.
1. We still don't know if you have 8 cavs left on Bob, or not. If you don't have them, break into the build queue at first possible moment, and make sure you will build 8 of them. Pollution might strike, so build at least 9. Pollution might strike where you intend to build the chaining transport, so make sure that build is safe as well. In case you don't get there, sacrifice defenders (you can do this from within the city view screen, during build phase)
2. Use all bombers to bombard Stanwix. Use all artillery to bomb Stanwix. In case yuo're lucky, and 1/4 units start defending before all your artillery bombardments are gone, wait a bit. There are a couple of cavs you might want to hit later on, before attacking them.
3. Use all your units to get through. Marines should probably attack first (8 attack is not so bad, plus they are likely to have some good health left), wounded tanks last (possible to take out 2 cavs with a 1/4 tank, but a 2/4 inf is much less likely).
4. At this point, we assume you will have conquered Stanwix. Most likely, you will have got over half your troops left, normally including some defenders, and some tanks.
5. Now, the settler blitz. Raze Stanwix.
6. Build the city, with the settler on Legoland. Let's call it city 1.
7. Unload all your waiting troops into city 1. chain your 8 cavs into city 1.
8. move 8 cavs, 4 settlers, and 5 tanks to where Stanwix used to be. The rest stays put for the moment (note: this might be changed, but more on that later)
9. Raze city 1.
10. build city 2 with one of the settlers.
11. City 2 will have 29 captured artillery from taking Stanwix. Use that to destroy the forest (taking the road and RR with you). Move a tank, to capture the 3 workers present (they build a forest last turn). Legopolis should be empty, walk in, and enjoy the celebrations of capturing Bach's and Smith's. Restore the road with the workers.
12. move everything to Legopolis 4 (so the 8 cavs, 3 settlers, and a couple of tanks).
13. raze Legopolis. Build city 3 at Legopolis 4.
14. from here, a cav can reach Panama.
15. from Panama, a cav can reach Port Hammer.
16. From city 3, a cav can reach Kloreepville.
17. Move everything to Kloreepville 4. Raze kloreepville. Build City 4 at kloreepville 4.
18. from here, a cav can reach Invoice.
19. From City 4, a cav can reach Sharpehaven.
20. From Sharpehaven, a cav can reach Forkmouth.
Don't worry about Sandonorico, we will have conquered that by that time.
This leaves 2 cavs, a couple of tanks, and a settler. You still have an open RR connection to City 1, so in case you need more tanks, you can get them easily. This will have destroyed all we currently can see on the map. You can scout out more... a cav and a settler can cross a distance of 5 tiles. A tank and a settler can cross a distance of 4 tiles. Tanks can go 3. So, at the very least, you will be able to take another 3 cities with you, most likely more.
In total, at least 11 cities (including Fort Stanwix) are either gone, or under your control.
Now comes the sad part... there is no way you can defend these. You've got enough troops to defend one city, maybe (but that would be risking it) 2. Also, you will have 27 arts, and a lot of wounded units on the place where you built City 1. It might be a good idea, to spend your last settler on rebuilding that city: so move the settler into position, move everything with movement left over there, destroy city 2, and build city 5 where city 1 used to be.
Don't forget, with the captured arts, you have now > 50 arts to protect, and only have something like 30 tanks to do so.
However, this does not mean Lego can just wipe you out. You will have taken 12 tanks, leaving only 15 tanks of Lego, most likely distributed over Jackson and Dye fields. With your razing - and ours - they could at most build 10 more next turn. You have plenty of units, artillery and tanks, left to pillage all the roads leading to your position (if you don't build a city, build a fort. You will have tons of slaves from all the razing). Only 25 tanks at most to attack you, and some 50 units remaining before they can get to the artillery. You will be safe.
there are a couple of variations here.
- You could defend one city, but that will probably mean you will lose your 27 artillery. While your task might done, it wouldn't make ours any easier 
- It could be so that Legopolis is defended. (it should be scouted out for sure). In that case, either bombard it with the freshly captured artilleries (exposing them), or simply put your 36 tanks against them. Legopolis will fall.
- You could try to hold on to Legopolis (it has two important wonders), But that is risking it: it has a high chance of flipping back to them. Plus, in that case, you can't reach Panama, one of their most core cities and likely candidate for the palace jump.
One other thing: you are going to receive loads of money from this. Not only does Lego still has 1200 gold in treasury, but also every city you raze, improvements can be sold beforehand. A factory (of which you're going to encounter at least 9) is 60 gold... this counts up. We wouldn't dare to ask if you could let some of that gold slip our way (for giving you any ideas or so ), but perhaps we could help each other: we are short on cash, and both of us could be helped if we would steal Lego's map right now (it costs 336 gold, which is about everything we can spare. Otherwise we would propose to do some investigation for you as well). Maybe you could pay us this turn turn, for our stealing now, and in return you get a perfect roadmap of where your cavs and settlers might take you.
I hope this will be of some help.
DeepO
Addendum: there is some concern on our team if you are certain to take Stanwix or not, and seeing the criticality of this, it would make a difference to know for sure. In case you don't have enough troops, we might be able to come to your help, but all this hangs together with a lot of ifs, and thens. We don't know for certain, but we might be able to hop our way to Fort Stanwix, reaching it with something close to 30 tanks. We can take a couple of cities doing so, but those 30 tanks are non-recuperable, and it would most probably mean we can't take the FP. Further, we need to take a couple of cities, which you get 'for free' once you would get Fort Stanwix.
To be certain, there is a relatively unconventional question we need to ask. If you know your troop strength of last turn (which you do, otherwise just open last turn's save to check it), we could enter a spy into you. Or at least, we can try (not certain it succeeds). For those 147 gold pieces, we will have our private battle report... So, do you want us to spy on you? After that, Lego could keep their battle reports from us, we still would have a pretty good idea what is going on.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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Latest from GS:
quote:
Farmerville, Forkmouth, Red Bricks, Tarzania ...
latest pic : http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...afterOasis8.jpg
Yeah, we're hoping to relieve you guys at Stanwitcza!
First, the GoW stack , then the results of our tank attack.
GoW stack
- 26 marines
- 2 reg marines
- 1 3/5 marine
- 26 artillery (shouldn't that be 27?)
- 1 settler
- 2 1/4 tank
- 2 2/4 tank
- 1 3/4 tank
- 17 2/4 inf
- 1 2/5 inf
- 1 1/4 inf
The battle for Fort Stanwix
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank killed. Inf 1/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4), inf 4/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed, inf 1/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 4/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes
to 2/5.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf 4/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed, tank 3/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf 2/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 2/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment hits. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes
to 4/5.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 3/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Tank retreats (1/4). Inf 2/4.
Tank attacks inf. defensive bombardment fails. Inf killed. Tank 2/4.
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Total: 16 Tank attacks. 10 succesful defensive bombardments. 6 infs killed.
6 tanks killed.
[/quote]
I'm currently subracting the losses to see what stands at Stanwix.
Last edited by Master Zen on 10-12-2004 at 18:59
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25-11-2004 02:45
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