16-01-2005 07:30									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

LOL, yes, throw your feeble forces at my Mighty Moonbarean Horde and we'll have the game won before my Holidays

	16-01-2005 07:31									#92
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm sorry, but dogpiles may not be discussed in the organizational thread...

	16-01-2005 09:02									#93
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ok, dogpile discussion has now been moved to private emails. Whoever isn't getting them may be in trouble.

	16-01-2005 17:44									#94
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oops

	07-02-2005 09:52									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And the gladiator-generals resume to plot and maneuver...

[cue Kirk vs alien themesong]

	07-02-2005 10:25									#96
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by bongo Oops

Bongo, you must have known you would be dogpiled on again here ... I mean, after the LAST game, it was clear you enjoyed being on the short end of a 3 on 1 dogpile ... and I have to say you didn't do too badly there either ...

	07-02-2005 15:51									#97
	Tired of ads?

Getting SoZ from an early SGL helped. Then again, wihtout that SGL there may not have been a dogpile in the first place...

Fascinating how the game is shaped by random events(like SGLs and geography)

	11-02-2005 11:49									#98
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Something tells me this is going to be a short game.

Well, short for me, anyway

	16-02-2005 06:26									#99
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm looking for a clarification and reminder perhaps.

What level of discussion are we allowed to hold with players we have met, before an Embassy is established? I am not talking about tech trading - that is fairly clear.

	16-02-2005 11:53									#100
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I think all the restrictions are covered in 1-2 of the code. The only other restriction that relates is with military coordination. Sharing military plans against another player requires an alliance to be declared in the f4 screen (and obviously an embassy).

	16-02-2005 13:40									#101
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What about discussions in general? Are we able to discuss how we feel about other players, what others are doing to us, etc?

	16-02-2005 13:53									#102
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Why not? As long as we follow the restrictions already in the rules about details etc.

	27-02-2005 04:40									#103
	Steeling our time... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Looking over the smoldering embers of Civ3, I'm wondering what it will take to produce some flames to keep us warm until Civ4 is released. Here's some kindling: are enough people interested in another Iron Civer?

My intial plan proposal:

Preliminary round of 4(or 5)-player games:
Double (2-city) elimination
Tiny pangaea, 70% water
Monarch level
Climate/Temperature/Age Random
Roaming Barbarians
Y-Wrapping on
Cultural conversions on
Scientific Great Leaders off
No culturally linked start
Last player must set NoAIPatrol to 0 in their .ini file
The map will be previewed to make sure there are no island starts. All seafaring tribes will be assured of a coastal start


Games will be played with a new Iron Civer Scenario:
(v1.2)
1> SGLs will be turned off. Copernicus’ Observatory is a Scientific Wonder.
2> Basic barbarians are archers. Advanced barbarians are Mounted Warriors.
3> Democracy has free unit support equal to that of the Republic (1/3/4). Corruption for Feudalism reduced to minimal. Secret Police HQ are available to Fascism insead of Communism [ed]and becomes available with Industrialization[/ed].
4> Artillery, Radar Artillery, Tank, Mechanized Infantry, Modern Armor, and Panzer have wheeled property.
5> Ivory is a strategic resource, with appearance ratio of 160 (the same as Iron and Horses), disappearance ratio of 400 (same as alluminum). Tobacco is a luxury resource.
6> Colosseums can be a Tourist Attraction. [Note: This really isn't as important as the rest of the mods here- its more of an 'indigo' mod. A laurel wreath goes to any master of arcane trivia that can explain what that means...]
7> Espionage is an optional Ancient Era tech requiring only Writing [ed]will require Map Making[/ed], with a 30 base cost. 'Cursus Publicus' is a new small wonder identical in function to the Intelligence Agency, costing 200 shields, giving 1 culture, available with Espionage and made obsolete by Nationalism. Industrialisation is now the prerequisite for the IA. [ed]Steal World Map missions have a base cost of 10 instead of 1.[/ed]


Final Tournament structure and rules will depend on the level of interest expressed, but there will be an actively enforced 24-hour clock again. Tribes will be picked by players with identically ranked ones being ignored for the involved players. Circumstances permitting, I'll organize the prelim games so that there are as few rematches from the last Tournament as possible. If anyone is interested, PM or email me the following information:
Your Email for turns:
Password:
Top 5 tribes desired (in order):
Do you wish to use Iron Civer Warrior Code diplomacy options #1-2a) and b)? (Y to both or N to both):
Combat Reporting Level [#4-2 in Warrior Code] Preference (0-3.5):
Primary Availability Times (in actual GMT):

This won't start for a few weeks at the earliest. If we can't get at least 16 interested players, this probably won't happen at all...

Last edited by Rommel2D on 09-04-2005 at 09:35

	27-02-2005 05:02									#104
	Tired of ads?

nm

Last edited by Krill on 27-02-2005 at 05:13

	27-02-2005 05:31									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bring it on Romell

	27-02-2005 10:51									#106
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Tiny pangaea, 60% water

After a little experimentation, 70% makes for better maps...

	03-03-2005 00:11									#107
	code amendment proposal Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Concerning Sabrewolf's point a while back about PBEM not including a 'leave or declare war option';

How about if the player to first attack (declaring war) would only be allowed to initiate combat with one unit outside of their cultural borders? All other units would have to wait until the following turn to attack. The initiator can attack as many targets as they would like within their own borders the first turn, but may only attack the same opponent with one unit in that player's land or in neutral areas.

This would in effect allow a defending player to wait and force a trasspasser to attack first (thereby giving war happiness to the defender), as long as they can defend their cities against any single unit (blitzing army?).

	03-03-2005 00:45									#108
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

That gives the defender to much of ann advatage...they ought to defend their borders better...

	03-03-2005 01:02									#109
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Right. This is meant to compensate for the lack of a 'leave or declare war' mechanism- the above rule is too broad in scope. What if it only applied to units already in the other player's cultural borders? Only one of those could attack.

The problem is that an agressor spoiling for war can march a few stacks up to his opponent's cities to set up for a 'deliberate blitz', forcing the defender to strike pre-emptively. This gives the War Happiness to the agressor, the exact opposite of how it is supposed to work.

	03-03-2005 01:07									#110
	Tired of ads?

there is a leave or declare war option. If somebody enters you land , you tell them to leave. If they don't, you kill them.

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Right. This is meant to compensate for the lack of a 'leave or declare war' mechanism- the above rule is too broad in scope. What if it only applied to units already in the other player's cultural borders? Only one of those could attack. The problem is that an agressor spoiling for war can march a few stacks up to his opponent's cities to set up for a 'deliberate blitz', forcing the defender to strike pre-emptively. This gives the War Happiness to the agressor, the exact opposite of how it is supposed to work.

	03-03-2005 02:36									#111
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Moonbars there is a leave or declare war option. If somebody enters you land , you tell them to leave. If they don't, you kill them.

... giving the attacker the war happiness bonus!

	03-03-2005 02:59									#112
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So? If it's worth it, you attack. If not, you let him attack...

	03-03-2005 03:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf ... giving the attacker the war happiness bonus!

so?

	03-03-2005 14:44									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars there is a leave or declare war option.

The point is that it's about the mechanism, not the option. The game was specifically designed to work one way in SP, but because of the sequential phases in PBEM, it often works precisely the opposite of the SP design. It's basically a way for experienced PBEMers to exploit the war weariness system against newer or less informed players. I think what we're trying to work toward here is to see players gain the advantage based on conventional tactics and strategies, rather than by irregularities introduced by poor programming implementation...

	03-03-2005 16:26									#115
	Inflate your Upload Space

You can't make someone declare war just for being in your territory.

Just because the game works a certain way under SP doesn't mean it must work the same way under PBEM. I actually think that the current system adds more strategic depth to the PBEM experience than if we implemented an "honour" system whereby you must declare war or leave.....the strategic depth being that you must decide whether attacking a player in your territory is worth the cost of giving him war happiness. In most cases the answer will revolve around the implications of the war itself, rather than the war happiness.

This goes to the core of PBEM strategy - if another player enters your territory and you are not prepared for it because you prioritised other builds over defence, then you must accept your lot! In such circumstances, the war happiness issue is irrelevant.

Remember also, that human players don't tend to like aggressors....so provoking an attack simply to give yourself war happiness is likely to have wider-reaching consequences for your longer term health in the game

	03-03-2005 17:12									#116
	Increase Your PM Length

Well said aqua, couldn't agree more

	04-03-2005 01:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 This goes to the core of PBEM strategy - if another player enters your territory and you are not prepared for it because you prioritised other builds over defence, then you must accept your lot! In such circumstances, the war happiness issue is irrelevant.

This has nothing to do with how prepared the defender is. If the defender is that unprepared, they will lose whether they get the first round of attacks in or not.

Although war happiness isn't a huge factor in the overall game, few of the other exploits covered in the code are game-breakers either. This is about giving an advantage, however minor, to one of the players. The SP game is designed to give the defender a certain advantage against an agressor. The PBEM mechanisms turn this into an advantage for the agressor if they know how to exploit it- it is broken.

To me, the code concerning etiquette and exploits is there to create a tournament environment where new players experienced in SP can participate on an equal footing with experienced PBEMers in a contest based on conventional game strategy and the RNG. I'm reading the arguments here as essentially "I've learned to use this exploit to my advantage, I should be able to benefit by playing against someone who hasn't". I'm extemely skeptical of the claim that since the situation is the opposite of how the SP game works, it adds any "strategic depth". There is a difference between deep strategy and cheap tricks. If there was an argument that this wasn't an exploit based purely on PBEM's poorly designed mechanics, I'd be inclined to just drop it...

quote: if we implemented an "honour" system whereby you must declare war or leave.....

That's not the proposal. The hard-and-fast rule would be that if you have multiple units in a given enemy's territory, only one of those units may attack on the first turn in order to initiate war.

This is not as powerful as the LoDW option (agressor units may still trespass unhindered all they want), but it addresses what seems to be the most harmful exploit: The defender is not forced to make a pre-emptive strike and send what should be their War Happiness to the aggressor just to avoid having a number of his/her cities wiped out before s/he can get a single round of combat in.

[BTW this is not just an arbitrary rule- prior to the industrial revolution, opposing armies did not simply wash over the enemy. Usually armies would meet, size each other up, and the leader of the agressor would make some token act to signal the outbreak of complete hostilities.]

	04-03-2005 01:46									#118
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Rommel2D The hard-and-fast rule would be that if you have multiple units in a given enemy's territory, only one of those units may attack on the first turn in order to initiate war.

What for? You can declare war without attacking any units. This means, that if someone marches into your territory, the reason is pretty obvious. Whether you can force him to attack where you want is a matter of strategy and tactics then. Has nothing to do with exploits.

	04-03-2005 02:15									#119
	Full PM-box? Change here!

War Happiness is designed specifically to give the defender an advantage in such a situation. Without LoDW, the tables are turned and the agressor gains an advantage if they are familliar with the unique PBEM mechanics and wish to use this to their advantage (exploit).

Trespassing with the intent to later attack is not strategy, and it is only a tactic in the sense that shooting your enemy's horse or kneeing an opponent's groin in sports when the ref isn't looking are.

	04-03-2005 02:28									#120
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's true, that isn't strategy for the attacker, although there is some strategy involved in the defender's response.

Still, I would prefer an honor code of declaring war when you are trespassing with intent to attack.