27-11-2004 13:32									#1
	Police Rating and Non-Lethal Methods Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I might have managed to confuse myself about the Police Rating, Military Units acting as Police, Non-Lethal Methods, and their combined effect on drones, and I need to take a circuitous route to my question so I can show everything I'm taking into account.

First, the list from alphax.txt:

quote: #SOCPOLICE -5, Two extra Drones for each military unit away from territory!! -4, Extra Drone for each military unit away from territory! -3, Extra Drone if more than one military unit away from territory. -2, Cannot use military units as Police. No nerve stapling. -1, One Police unit allowed. No nerve stapling. 0, Can use one military unit as Police. 1, Can use up to 2 military units as Police. 2, Can use up to 3 military units as Police! 3, 3 units as Police. Police effect doubled!!

Next, the Special Ability:

quote: Non-Lethal Methods, 1, Integ, Police, 000000001001, x2 Police powers

Now, two statements in the manual, with a key part underlined:

quote: Chapter 4: Colonizing Planet, page 63: Drone Riots, beginning of second paragraph: To end a Drone Riot, you can move military units into the base to act as police (the number of police needed is determined by your Social Engineering choices)

quote: Chapter 5: Controlling Society, page 142: Social Factors - Police, first sentence: Determines the number of units that can act as police (see Drone Riots, p.63) in your bases.

The way those parts are written, I see this:
(1) A military unit without Non-Lethal Methods will act as police when it is in a base, and will pacify one drone as long as the Police rating is -1 or more. If the Police rating is +1 or more, each additional military unit without Non-Lethal Methods (to a maximum of 3) will also act as police when it is in a base, each pacifying one drone.
(2) Any unit with Non-Lethal Methods will pacify 2 drones.
(3) If the Police rating is +3 or more, three military units will act as police, with or without Non-Lethal Methods, and each pacifies one additional drone, to a maximum of 9 (if three military units have NLM).

Now my confusion:
(4) In my current game, the Police rating is -2 or less, all factors taken into account.
(5) I have some kind of military unit garrisoned in a base.
(6) That unit pacifies NO drones, correct?

OR:

(7) Assume I create in the Workshop a 1-1-1 Infantry and give it Non-Lethal Methods. I build one as the sole garrison unit in a base.
(8) That unit pacifies NO drones, correct? (there is no benefit applied for having NLM)
(9) That unit creates NO drones, correct? (there is no penalty incurred for having NLM)

Might someone clear these muddied waters, please?

	27-11-2004 14:34									#2
	Re: Police Rating and Non-Lethal Methods Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by gwillybj Now my confusion: (4) In my current game, the Police rating is -2 or less, all factors taken into account. (5) I have some kind of military unit garrisoned in a base. (6) That unit pacifies NO drones, correct?

Correct

quote: OR: (7) Assume I create in the Workshop a 1-1-1 Infantry and give it Non-Lethal Methods. I build one as the sole garrison unit in a base. (8) That unit pacifies NO drones, correct? (there is no benefit applied for having NLM)

Correct

quote: (9) That unit creates NO drones, correct? (there is no penalty incurred for having NLM)

I would fully expect that, though it's not out of the question for Firaxis to put a bug there.

	28-11-2004 00:45									#3
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quote: #SOCPOLICE -5, Two extra Drones for each military unit away from territory!! -4, Extra Drone for each military unit away from territory! -3, Extra Drone if more than one military unit away from territory. -2, Cannot use military units as Police. No nerve stapling. -1, One Police unit allowed. No nerve stapling. 0, Can use one military unit as Police. 1, Can use up to 2 military units as Police. 2, Can use up to 3 military units as Police! 3, 3 units as Police. Police effect doubled!!

What does this mean - police effect doubled? Meaning they can pacify up to 6 drones provided that you have 3 military units?

And I am bit muddled by above postings - is there any benefit to having NLM at all?

	28-11-2004 00:56									#4
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It means, you can have up to 4 (that's four) citizens kept quiet by a single MP unit, if you give it Non-Lethal Methods. Quite awesome for playing the Hive. No Recreation Commons, ever.

	28-11-2004 01:05									#5
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If your Police rating is +3, each unit that qualifies as police quells an extra drone (which, for most units, is double the effect). A nonlethal police unit will also quell an extra drone. Put both together, and 1 unit can quell 3 drones, not 4. Think d20 - a doubled doubling is a tripling. Even so, suppressing 9 drones at the cost of 3 support slots (before Clean Reactors, anyway) is a pretty good deal. Nonlinear Methods is very good on garrisons *if* you can use police in the first place.

	28-11-2004 01:07									#6
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That's weird. I thought "something x 2" doesn't always equal "something + 1". In fact, it does very seldom. Oh, well...

	28-11-2004 08:11									#7
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they never doubled it-they just increased it by +1.the game just uses that term

	28-11-2004 12:21									#8
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Welcome to the wonderful...and quite strange...world of Firaxis...

	28-11-2004 12:47									#9
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Ah thanks for the clarification. And if I understood the first post, NLM is no good if my police rating is -2 or lower, correct? It only comes in effect once my police rating is -1 or higher?

Let see if I got this right, suppose I have NLM on my military units, the total drones I can suppress in a base are...

quote: #SOCPOLICE -5, Two extra Drones for each military unit away from territory!! Drones pacificed - 0 -4, Extra Drone for each military unit away from territory! Drones pacificed - 0 -3, Extra Drone if more than one military unit away from territory. Drones pacificed - 0 -2, Cannot use military units as Police. No nerve stapling. Drones pacificed - 0 -1, One Police unit allowed. No nerve stapling. Drones pacificed - 2 0, Can use one military unit as Police. Drones pacificed - 2 1, Can use up to 2 military units as Police. Drones pacificed - 4 2, Can use up to 3 military units as Police! Drones pacificed - 6 3, 3 units as Police. Police effect doubled!! Drones pacificed - 9

And for -1, it says 'Police unit' not 'military unit' meaning I need to have a unit with NLM ability or otherwise it would not be counted as a police unit?

	28-11-2004 13:39									#10
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-1 Police rating is just like 0 Police rating, except you can't nerve staple. Police unit is just shorthand for military unit used as police. Your chart is correct, however.

	28-11-2004 23:28									#11
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Thanks

	29-11-2004 01:54									#12
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Perhaps they should design the game so that Non-Lethal method units can always take care of at least one drone, regardless of SE. Of course, limitations would have to be made, or else you could have 30 police units with -8 police...

	29-11-2004 03:19									#13
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Nope, that's the downside of a low police rating - drone problems. IMO, the penalties for -5 and below aren't harsh enough, as they are:

1 less drone pacified (relative to police rating 0).
Difficulty waging an overt war, alleviated by punishment spheres and specialist bases.
No nerve stapling.

Not good, but not very bad.

	29-11-2004 16:52									#14
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When having a police rating of -1 or higher, I think it better to use a police unit than to turn a worker into a doctor (before thinkers and empaths are available anyway). However this can also be done by constructing RC's , HT's.

However having one slot for police (pre neural grafting) means this unit will be susceptable to forms of attack (ie. by air, because it does not have AAA).

A 1-1-1 police infantry does still cost 10 mins, thus making the police ability free, btw.

Drones for military away from territory (war etc) can only be alleviated by creating doctors and the like. (See psych chart in Base screen) or by constructing a Punishment Sphere in that city. Not by constructing police (since no police is allowed below Police = -1) or recreation commons etc.

By the way, i think this tread is very refreshing regarding police, i did not know about the 9 drones if police is doubled.

How about the Self Aware Colony secret project:
If the use of police is allowed under the current social setting every base is considered to have an extra police unit

How would that unit suppress drones? Also as 3 (with max police SE setting)? Making 12 suppressed drones max?

	29-11-2004 19:31									#15
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The Self-Aware Colony acts like an ordinary garrison in every city for the purposes of police. If you have +3 Police and 3 non-lethal methods units in a city, the 4th garrison provided by the SP is wasted, since you can only use 3 units as police.

	29-11-2004 22:10									#16
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Ah! Thanks, Major Guz, I forgot all about that SP.

So with the Self-Aware Colony, every base automatically have a "ghost" police unit? So with -1 and 0 Police Rating, there is no need for a real police unit, with +1 there is a room for one real police unit, and with +2 and +3 there are room for two real police units?

Does the Self-Aware Colony have any effect under the Police Rating of -2 or less? Or would the SP be 'wasted' on a faction that has a police rating of -2 or below?

	29-11-2004 23:46									#17
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Let me see if I can break down the police system (the way I understand it) and see if it clears things up for folks.

First off a little about the Psych system.....Think of psych as one of those number lines from primary school math:
A worker represents a 0 on the psych scale.
A drone represents a -2 and a talent is a +2.
When you talk about adding drones or talents or police or whatever, you are really adding to the number line. So a Rec Common subtracts -4 psych. Notice I didn't say adds a +4, that would be the effect of the Paradise Gardens (adds two talents). Ultimately, they all add up to the same amount {+(+4)=-(-4)=+4}, but they do perform differently in the game.

Anyway, back to the cops. NLM and "double police" effect does not actually give x2 drone suppression as advertised.
The following assumes a -1 POLICE SE rating:
When a military unit is added to a city, you are actually subtracting a -2, or one less drone. When you add a military unit with NLM you are subtracting -2 for the unit, and an additional -2 for NLM. Similarly, the "double police" SE effect actually only delivers (wrap your head around this ) an additional subtraction of a -2, same as NLM. This is why you get a tripling effect, not a double-doubling effect. One -(-2) for the unit, one -(-2) for the NLM, and one -(-2) for the SE effect for a net subtraction of -6 or -(-6) or three less drones.

Now is everyone properly confused?

Just for reference, they do it this way so they can use these numbers for other calculations. For instance, if the talents number (the positive numbers) is less than the drones (the negative numbers), then drone riots erupt. It also controls the display of the drones/talents. Lets say you are on Transcend level with a level 3 city (so 2 drones or -4 psych). You have the HGP +(+2), and one military unit -(-2).
(-4) +(+2)-(-2)=0......drone/talent equilibrium displaying one talent, one worker, one drone.

I'm not 100% sure how the SAC SP acts in relation, but theoretically, it should just subtract a -2.

quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Does the Self-Aware Colony have any effect under the Police Rating of -2 or less? Or would the SP be 'wasted' on a faction that has a police rating of -2 or below?

The SP specifically states "if your current social engineering allows for police"....a -2 obviously wouldn't allow for police.

	30-11-2004 03:44									#18
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The SAC police unit is nice, but never has non-lethal methods, so there's still room for improvement on top of the ghost unit. The unit is indeed not useful for Police <= -2. I'm not certain if it works properly at Police = +3, and don't have the time to test it right now.

	30-11-2004 05:46									#19
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If I understood you right, Chao Theory, in a way if I have three clean NLM units in every base with +3 Police I'm better off not having SAC?

No SAC - 9 drones suppressed
With SAC - 8 drones suppressed

Is that what you are saying?

Or perhaps if I have SAC and I happen to have 3 NLM units, the game will ignore SAC and give me credit for three real police units?

For instance...

2 real police and SAC ghost police - 8 drones suppressed
3 real police (third police unit overriding the ghost SAC police) - 9 drones suppressed

	30-11-2004 08:31									#20
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I think the actual police unit overrides the ghost one if it's better in the same way a nonlethal methods garrison overrides a normal garrison. I haven't tested this, though.

	30-11-2004 12:25									#21
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I can remember that way back (I think 2 years or so) there was a thread regarding the ghost police unit of the SAC.
Maybe it is in the archives somehwere.
I don't remember what the outcome was though.

	30-11-2004 18:33									#22
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Just play morgan and don't bother with police: use money

Greetz

	30-11-2004 18:53									#23
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Yes funnel everything into Psych. ;-)

	30-11-2004 19:18									#24
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Just play spartan and don't bother with money, use power Power POWER.

	30-11-2004 21:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus If I understood you right, Chao Theory, in a way if I have three clean NLM units in every base with +3 Police I'm better off not having SAC?

You are only better off if you have virtually no facilities in your bases. Otherwise, police or no police the SAC is really all about the halving of facility costs. One of the best SPs, and really almost always worth taking.

	01-12-2004 02:24									#26
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Interesting and refreshing thread and especially if combined with Kody's thread on suppressing drones generally: how that works with the facilities.

Then throw in faction special features such as the Cult's
"worms do double police" and the effect of brood pits (to be explored) gives base a +2 rating or +2 more rating) plus the Ascetic Values which increases societies tolerance for use of police, + 1.

Sure I'll be keeping a 16 size base content with a worm and a
1-1p-1 unit .

Last edited by Hercules on 01-12-2004 at 04:14

	01-12-2004 10:04									#27
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quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- Just play morgan and don't bother with police: use money

That's what got me screwed up - trying to play Morgan and forgetting about the police restrictions in FM.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Yes funnel everything into Psych. ;-)

That's how I did it - had to run 30% for a little bit, but went back to 20% a while back and I'm doing okay.

Many thanks to all for the replies and analysis.

	01-12-2004 13:33									#28
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And kudos to you, gwillybj, for starting this discussion. It uncovered many detials I never really gave much thought to before. I usually let specialists, facilities, and luxury take care of my drones problem. Now I see that there are some alternatives I have not fully explored yet. I hope there will be a comphresive analysis on how facilities, police rating, unit abilities, and special projects affect the police suppression of those bloody drones.

	01-12-2004 21:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- Just play morgan and don't bother with police: use money

I say, use money and police!
Morgan runs best with Demo/Green/Wealth.

(+2 Econ and a +4 Efficency) > (+3 Econ and +2 Efficency)

Plus you can still use police, and go to war, and capture worms under this SE. Plus less B-Drones, less energy wasted, and 100% Labs/EC concentration. The only caveat is the support problems, easily solved with clean reactors and/or switching to fundy during war.

	01-12-2004 23:04									#30
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Demo/Green/Wealth is indeed a good SE set for Morgan, but something/FM/Wealth is better early on, for an extra 4 energy/base when bases are pretty small. Later, the commerce boost might be appealing, but among AIs, running FM/Wealth is not the best way to make allies with which to trade.