28-11-2004 07:38									#61
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MrFun,

Do you think Israel and even the US giving up their nukes would make the slightest difference to the Iranians' desire to get some?

	28-11-2004 07:39									#62
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No they wouldn't.

I guess that post was just nonsensical, idealistic babble.



my apologies

	28-11-2004 07:42									#63
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Yes, but having an idealistic, even moral, view on things is still a valuable asset when you're trying to push for rogue nations to give up nuclear programs. So it wasn't totally nonsensical.

	28-11-2004 07:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I did not insult you. I just stated the facts about your hatred of Israel.

I don't hate Israel. I just don't lick its ass either. I consier it the same as any other state.

BTW, "chegitz guevara got his customary hardon attacking Israel and everyone and everything associated with it," is not merely a mischaraterization of my position but also an insult.

quote: And I suppose you didn't call Siro a fascist either, hm?

I didn't. I said stop reading fascist propaganda. There's a difference.

quote: As to your continued beating of that dead horse of yours, maybe I could ask you to keep your rabid anti-Israeli ramblings out of a thread on Iran's nukes altogether?

The subject of Israel and its aggression is relevent to why Iran sees a need for nukes. The fact that Iran sees a need of nukes is relevent to why Iran is trying to get nukes. Unfortunately for you, the world isn't neatly packaged up into nice guys and bad guys who do things either to defend themselves from badguys or to persue their neferious plans for evil. Actions have repercutions decades after the fact, and the whole ME is wrapped up in a Gordian knot of threats, perceived threats, insults, perceived insults, and lots and lots of history. Sp while you might like to simply say, "Iran has no reason to have nukes!" that's not quite the case. They have plenty of reasons.

None of the preceding should be taken to imply that I endorse the aquisition of nukes by Iran.

quote: You do realise that's my complaint wrt. to the threadjack, not a short exchange several hours ago on whether Israel could be considered an enemy of Iran or not.

I also noticed that you scolded neither Siro nor Edan, so I must surmise that your objection is not to the threadjack itself, but to my viewpoint. Apparently you feel it's okay for them to attack my point, but I should just let them attack my points and not try and rebutt them. If I let it go without comment, then I'm tacitly admitting my point is invalid, which I don't admit.

	28-11-2004 07:48									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Winston MrFun, Do you think Israel and even the US giving up their nukes would make the slightest difference to the Iranians' desire to get some?

Possibly. Pakistan stopped its push for nukes in the 70s when India put its program on the shelf. Libya just stopped its nuke program. But neither the US nor Israel are about to give up their nukes, so it's a moot point.

	28-11-2004 07:50									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: And this coming from an Israeli? Oh the hypocrisy.... Yes, you're right. We should infact give nukes to everyone on earth who wants them...

It's impossible to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. As technology spreads, so do they. Some 50 or so countries already have the knowledge and infrastructure to build nuclear weapons. There have been incidents of people building nuclears bombs in their home, apparently. Do you seriously think you can prevent nuclear weapons from being built?


And why should you think anyone would voluntarily refrain from doing so when the people telling them not to all have nuclear weapons of their own?

	28-11-2004 07:54									#67
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In addition to this:

quote: Originally posted by Winston This sub-debate is now over for me also.

...only the point that I agree that in their own way of looking at the world, the Iranians could well see themselves as having plenty of reasons to acquire nukes. That's why I posted this earlier,

"I thought we weren't talking about Iran's "logic", by which, granted, they might perceive Israel as having aggressive intentions - but rather whether we, as onlookers, agree with Iran's desire to acquire nukes. Whether it's their "right" so to speak."

I still think it's more relevant how the surrounding world community sees things than how the Iranian leadership does. That's why we should keep pushing for them to give it up.

	28-11-2004 07:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Possibly. Pakistan stopped its push for nukes in the 70s when India put its program on the shelf. Libya just stopped its nuke program. But neither the US nor Israel are about to give up their nukes, so it's a moot point.

Of course it's a moot point. It was meant as an illustration of the independency of other nations' having nukes or not, to the Iranians' burning wish to develop their own.

Did you watch the video Sirotnikov linked to earlier. It might hold an indication as to whether they were likely to give it up even if nobody else in the whole wide world had nukes...

	28-11-2004 07:58									#69
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's impossible to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. As technology spreads, so do they. Some 50 or so countries already have the knowledge and infrastructure to build nuclear weapons. There have been incidents of people building nuclears bombs in their home, apparently. Do you seriously think you can prevent nuclear weapons from being built?

A lot of countries have the knowledge to build nuclear weapons. Many of them even have the capabilitiy to build them.

Most of them don't.

	28-11-2004 08:01									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Do you think Israel and even the US giving up their nukes would make the slightest difference to the Iranians' desire to get some?

No, but a large reduction in US conventional forces might. The disparity between US and Iranian conventional forces is the reason Iran has to bridge the gap with nukes.

	28-11-2004 08:04									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Edan A lot of countries have the knowledge to build nuclear weapons. Most of them don't have it.

What's "it"?

You mean, more don't then do?


Yeah, there's a shitload of piss-poor third world countries.


Do you think a tribal war lord in Africa is going to have the facilities to build a nuclear missle? No... of course not.


But, as technology spreads, and more and more of these countries "catch up" they too will have the capabilities of building nuclear weapons. And even if a country doesn't have the means to build them theirselves, there are - as you say - alot of countries that can do it for them, or help them (perhaps involuntarily) in the process.

	28-11-2004 08:04									#72
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I seem to recall that India got their first operational nuclear warhead in 1974, so I don't think Pakistan stepping down from development efforts at that time had a direct connection to India's capabilities.

	28-11-2004 08:07									#73
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India tested a bomb in 73 or 74, then stopped development of their program. It wasn't until the mid-90s when they resumed, whereupon Pakistan resumed its program.

	28-11-2004 08:07									#74
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How long until we have German, Japanese, Canadian, Australian, Spanish, Italian, Belarusian, Kazakhstan and Ukrainian nuclear weapons?

	28-11-2004 08:08									#75
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Kazakhstan has the bomb, lots of them infact. Ukraine had them, but gave them up to Russia (although a certain number are unaccounted for). I don't know what happened to the weapons in Byelorus.

	28-11-2004 08:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Edan How long until we have German, Japanese, Canadian, Australian, Spanish, Italian, Belarusian, Kazakhstan and Ukrainian nuclear weapons?

How long does the manufacturing process take?

	28-11-2004 08:14									#77
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quote: The former Soviet republics of Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan -- where the Soviets based many of their nuclear warheads -- safely returned their Soviet nuclear weapons to post-communist Russia in the 1990s, but all three countries still have stockpiles of weapons-grade uranium and plutonium.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/cfr/stories/nukes/

	28-11-2004 08:14									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara India tested a bomb in 73 or 74, then stopped development of their program. It wasn't until the mid-90s when they resumed, whereupon Pakistan resumed its program.

I know, you don't have to lecture me. But since they had nuclear capability as early as the 70's, your point that there was a connection to Pakistan's stepping down seems a little dubious.

Other factors may have had a larger influence, such as Pakistan finding itself in a domestically very tumultous situation during this time.

	28-11-2004 08:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd How long does the manufacturing process take?

Not very long. Certainly short enough that they could have made nuclear weapons by now.

	28-11-2004 08:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Not very long. Certainly short enough that they could have made nuclear weapons by now.

Are you suggesting that they want to make nuclear weapons and are unable to?


Or are you missing my point that nuclear capabilities go hand in hand with the spread of technological knowledge, and is not something that can be stopped?

	28-11-2004 08:20									#81
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Are you suggesting that they want to make nuclear weapons and are unable to?

No, the opposite.

I'm sugesting they are able to, but they do not want to make nuclear weapons.

	28-11-2004 08:21									#82
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Why don't we be honest.

All this is about is the ability of the US and Israel to impose their will on Middle Eastern countries.

Unless you think these two countries have some divine right to stick their nose in everyone else's business (which is what Shrub seems to think), you can't blame countries like Iran for wanting to protect themselves.

	28-11-2004 08:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Edan No, the opposite. I'm sugesting they are able to, but they do not want to make nuclear weapons.

So you are missing my point. Glad that's sorted out.

	28-11-2004 08:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd So you are missing my point. Glad that's sorted out.

Maybe it's because you never made it?

You stated that:

quote: It's impossible to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. As technology spreads, so do they.

I've shown examples where the technology has spread to, but where nuclear weapons have not proliferated.

	28-11-2004 11:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Israeli nukes Iranian nukes dummies who can't tell the difference between a tolerant democracy and an Islamic state that supports terrorism.

OMG!!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL SAVA!?!!

	28-11-2004 11:43									#86
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Canada had nuclear weapons for a while. We disarmed.

	28-11-2004 13:35									#87
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Canada had nuclear weapons for a while. We disarmed.

Not necessarily. It's been rumoured that at one point we built a disassembled nuclear weapon. Nothing's ever been stated publically, nor was it as much of an open secret as is the Israeli bomb.

quote: There have been incidents of people building nuclears bombs in their home, apparently.

Bullshit.

	28-11-2004 13:37									#88
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's been rumoured that at one point we built a disassembled nuclear weapon

Though I should mention that it is known in the Canadian physics community that a number of physicists disappeared for a few months around this time, only to return with vague stories of what they'd been doing...

	28-11-2004 13:39									#89
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Good thing we kept sanctions on India and Pakistan for 3 years to show we were really serious about NPT, guys, then dropped them as soon as it became politically expedient.

Otherwise people might have gotten the impression that nukes are for our friends and NPT is for everybody else.

	28-11-2004 16:04									#90
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Nobody is answering the question.

Iran: What the **** are we going to do about it?