28-11-2004 00:29									#1
	Iran dug tunnel for military nuclear work Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: REUTERS 7:11 a.m. November 27, 2004 BERLIN – Iran is working on a secret nuclear programme for military purposes despite promising the European Union it would halt all activities related to uranium enrichment, the news magazine Der Spiegel said on Saturday. The magazine said it had obtained documents from an unnamed intelligence agency showing that Iran had dug a secret tunnel near an Isfahan facility preparing raw uranium for enrichment, even though operations there had been stopped. Iran, which has repeatedly denied trying to develop nuclear weapons, promised the European Union on Nov. 14 it would halt all activities related to uranium enrichment, a process that creates atomic fuel for power plants or weapons. It then demanded an exemption for some 20 enrichment centrifuges for research purposes, a move Western diplomats argued could torpedo the whole deal. They said Iranian officials in Vienna dropped the demand on Friday, but were waiting for a final decision from Tehran. Der Spiegel, in an advance release of a report due to appear on Monday, said the secret underground facility near Isfahan could soon be ready to produce large amounts of uranium hexafluoride gas (UF6). Centrifuges that spin at supersonic speed can produce enriched uranium from UF6. The magazine said that according to the intelligence documents, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei personally issued a directive at the start of October to build the secret tunnel. Diplomats say the Iranian attempt to exempt some centrifuges from the deal struck with the European Union was infuriating both the EU, which is offering Tehran a package of economic incentives in exchange for freezing enrichment activities, and Washington which is adamant Iran is trying to produce nuclear arms. Oil-rich Iran says it wants nuclear power only to meet booming domestic demand for electricity.

Is Iran serious about quitting its nuclear work or is it just plaing a political game, hoping to finalize developement of nukes while the Europeans are busy talking to their diplomats?

	28-11-2004 00:33									#2
	Put an end to popups!

So when do we send in the inspectors on a 10-year mission to figure out what's going on?

	28-11-2004 00:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Invade Iran. Seriously.

I'd love to see it.

	28-11-2004 00:37									#4
	Support Apolyton

And this coming from an Israeli?

Oh the hypocrisy....

	28-11-2004 00:40									#5
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, they're getting nukes. What are you going to do about it?

The Iraq misadventure squandered the U.S.'s ability to effectively deal with Iran. Now they're free to thumb their nose at us and there isn't much we can do but complain loudly.

	28-11-2004 00:41									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Agathon And this coming from an Israeli? Oh the hypocrisy....

No, no...Israel wants nukes purely for it's self-defense. Iran wants them to destroy the world. Seriously.

	28-11-2004 00:48									#7
	Re: Iran dug tunnel for military nuclear work Support Apolyton

quote: Is Iran serious about quitting its nuclear work or is it just plaing a political game, hoping to finalize developement of nukes while the Europeans are busy talking to their diplomats?

Of course it's playing a game. If they don't get nukes ASAP, they might end up starting at the wrong end of a foreign gunbarrel. Iraq dismantled its nuclear programme and look at what happenned to it.

"We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Alabama gets the bomb!"
- Tom Lehrer

	28-11-2004 03:09									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: And this coming from an Israeli? Oh the hypocrisy....

Yes, you're right.

We should infact give nukes to everyone on earth who wants them... especially guys who trumpet Holy War, like Osama bin Laden, Al-Zawahiri and... oh that's right - the Islamic Republic of Iran.

We wouldn't want to be hypocritical now would be? Cause that would be bummer.

We wouldn't want fundamentalist folk crying about unequal rights and unfair treatment, cause that's might get them really mad. Think what they could do if they got thier nukes contraband!!!

We better give them some for free, as a counter measures, so they'll like us and use it on somebody else!!!

----

I'm almost done being cynical.


In any case, having more nukes introduced in the region creates a big shift of power and will undoubtedly introduce more instability and open the door for plenty more bloodshed and wars.

Rumors of Israeli nukes is what made most Arab countries decide to stop actively warring Israel. A counter-nuke, would void the Israeli advantage (as no side would want to introduce nukes first) and it would return to an almost pre-nuclear situation.

Now we'll have a cold war, an even bigger arms race, wars in other arab countries, or even direct increase in military action against Israel, and by Israel against other parties.

Great idea, an Iranian nuke!

	28-11-2004 03:13									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Iran is surrounded by nuclear powers, including one nuclearly armed enemy. Is it any wonder they want nukes? If Egypt and Syria had nukes and Israel didn't, would Israel do whatever it took to get them?

	28-11-2004 03:13									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, no...Israel wants nukes purely for it's self-defense. Iran wants them to destroy the world. Seriously.

I'm a keen believer in letting crazy leaders speak for themselves.

One should believe their words, and their imaging as it sets out their real intentions.


Here are some pictures from Iranian TV

Pay special attention to minute 4...

	28-11-2004 03:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Iran is surrounded by nuclear powers, including one nuclearly armed enemy. Is it any wonder they want nukes? If Egypt and Syria had nukes and Israel didn't, would Israel do whatever it took to get them?

Why do you have the constant annoying habbit of looking at international politics as if it was several kids fighting over icecream???

"Mom, Israel has nukes, I want nukes too!"
"No, mom! Iran can't have nukes! Nukes are all for me!"
"But mom! Its not fair! Why is Israel getting a larger share of WMDs???"
Chegitz - "there there kids. Now, Iran, I'm going to give you nukes too, so you won't feel less endowed. Here you go. Now be a good little boy and prove your maturity by NOT poking Israel with the nuke's sharp point"

[end play]

Nukes so happen to be dangerous sh*t, and the less people have them, the better.

I'd realise if you'd be trumpetting for disarming Israel too. That would be pretentious to be objective. But instead, you're saying that its very wise to give out more nukes to more people.

Especially Iran. Did you know that Iran finances and controls both directly and through proxies, all the terrorist organizations fighting Israel, except possibly the commie ones? Hezbullah, Fatah (Al-Aqsa Martyrs), Hamas, Islamic Jihad...

Its very wise to give them NUKES so they can go on financing terrorism , but only then, the west will have NO *****NG thing it can do against it.

Iran won't fear attack, because of the nukes, and won't fear sanctions, because they have oil, and those hardly work anyways. I'm not sure, but I also think they will have little effect on Iran, as it is not very west reliant.

	28-11-2004 03:37									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I wathced the first 8 minutes of it.. I have to say, it was pretty good 'parade'.. They must of been rehersing for it for weeks. They must be bored. It's the magnicifent parades that are usually the worst fighters . SC FACT.

Now, I didn't get it, why did they have swastika there too, with US and the star of David? I understand why US and star of David was there, and they were broke in half and destroyed but the swastika remained intact? So I didn't get it! What were they thinking?

But it was brilliant show however. Unfortunately it shows their attitude. Between them and me, I prefer it's them. Who gets it up the butt that is. Let's prepare to push.

It would be 'interesting' in a way to see how EU would react if Iran would attack Israel.. not by nukes but by conventional troopers and Israel would answer conventionally as well. Would EU ***** about 'This is a very sad event. We think the Iran is in the wrong. But so is Israel. But Iran little bit more. We will watch this fight and we will be angry.'.. .. yeah. Chirac will cry 'We will remain together in Europe and not lift a finger! YOU IN THE BACK SIT DOWN! No one gave you permit to go and help.. if you leave, your citizens will pay 5000% more next year.. **** I just wants to get paid.. got the villa coming up.. shut uP! YOU! Sniff my balls. Don't they smell nice? Don't lie! I kills you if you lie!'..

	28-11-2004 03:40									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Siro, good points wrt. to the Mideast balance of power situation.

And that's an interesting video to say the least...

	28-11-2004 03:43									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I'd realise if you'd be trumpetting for disarming Israel too. That would be pretentious to be objective. But instead, you're saying that its very wise to give out more nukes to more people.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'd rather Israel got rid of its nukes. It's not like you need them. Ain't no one in the ME that could kick your butt except us, or is that why you need them?

I'm just saying why Iran is trying to get them. The problem with the things is if your enemy has them, you need them. Instead of trying to keep first this country, then that, from having nukes, we should try and get rid of all of them.

	28-11-2004 03:44									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

winston, it is. And the nay-sayers will continue saying well.. this is just a parade, nothing to it. Well, let's see Israel having official parade like that, broadcasted on national TV. in fact, let's see ANY western country doing that. Let's see Russia do that. Let's see anyone except NK or Iran do that.

The biggest stupidity in the world is to get ****ed by Iran after seeing these things and not taking precaution.

	28-11-2004 03:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just because Che understands why Iran is interested in acquiring nuclear weapons, does not mean he agrees with Iran.


Why do some people automatically equote "understanding" with "agreement?"

	28-11-2004 03:46									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Iran doesn't "need" nukes because Israel has them. That's a phony argument. As long as they don't decide to attack Israel, what exactly do they have to fear?

	28-11-2004 03:48									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see any problem in the Iranians having nukes. It's not like they could use them for anything other than deterrence (which is what everyone uses them for).

quote: Especially Iran. Did you know that Iran finances and controls both directly and through proxies, all the terrorist organizations fighting Israel, except possibly the commie ones? Hezbullah, Fatah (Al-Aqsa Martyrs), Hamas, Islamic Jihad...

So. The US financed all sorts of terrorists, but didn't give them nuclear weapons.

Israel's nuclear weapons have proved a major deterrent to Iran's activities how?

Iran wants nukes for one reason, to deter other countries that have them (Israel, Pakistan, Russia). Sounds like common sense to me.

	28-11-2004 03:49									#19
	Suffering from ads?

that's right I agree with winston again. Israel has not threatened Iran with nukes. In fact it has assured everyone they will not nuke anyone unless they are nuked first. Israel has gone to lengths to assure that. And so far it has kept her word. Now, Iran doesn't need nukes because of Israel. UNLESS they want to have a ltitle power balance change or something else, like a barganing chip. Why would they need a barganing chip if they are going to be peaceful? Why would they parade on national TV about missiles destroying US and Israel, if they were peaceful? Peaceful my ass. They are peaceful only because they lack the power to realistically beat anyone of their enemies. If they had the ability, we would be in war already.

	28-11-2004 03:49									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Winston, having nuclear weapons is a good DEFENSE, as well as great for offensive capabilities.

A nuclear power is far less likely to attack another country that has nuclear weapons. So maybe Iran's logic is that if they have nuclear weapons, it woud deter Israel from attacking Iran -- or whatever other country you want to insert in place of "Israel."

	28-11-2004 03:51									#21
	Remove this text

quote: A nuclear power is far less likely to attack another country that has nuclear weapons. So maybe Iran's logic is that if they have nuclear weapons, it woud deter Israel from attacking Iran -- or whatever other country you want to insert in place of "Israel."

Yep. And when one of the world's superpowers invades your neighbour and puts you on notice, it is entirely rational to want nuclear weapons to defend yourself.

	28-11-2004 03:51									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MrFun, might be, or might not be. Do you want to flip coin on that one or make sure?

	28-11-2004 03:59									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I thought we weren't talking about Iran's "logic", by which, granted, they might perceive Israel as having aggressive intentions - but rather whether we, as onlookers, agree with Iran's desire to acquire nukes. Whether it's their "right" so to speak.

If you look at the situation objectively, what are the scenarios where Israel's nukes could pose a threat to Iran - except in the case of an Iranian attack? As long as they don't touch Israel, they'll be safe. Which was the whole point of Israel acquiring nukes in the first place. I say it's worked pretty well...

	28-11-2004 04:04									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

RIght, and people say that well, if Israel disarmed themselves from nukes, they would not be touched by others because they can defend themselves more than great. Well, Israel's defense is good and all that, good trained soldiers and other equipment sure, but hte fact remains it's a small place and with few alliances it could be crushed simply as that. I mean believing it's not possible is oen of the most stupid things I've ever heard. And I've heard it often! You explain me why it isn't possible, and if in fact executed not likely?

BEsides, if it was me and Israel didn't have nukes right now, I wouldn't like the idea of them having them now. I don't like ANYONE having nukes at all, period. The fact is, some countries have nukes. That's just the way it is. But if it's up to me, no one else gets nukes. I don't even want us to have nukes. Not even if it was free and it costed nothing. No way.

So I will protest anyone getting any nukes. In case of Iran, even more so. I don't see them as a friendly nation. That might be the propaganda Western media has filled my brain with, call me fool but that's just the way I feel about it. I mean they don't even try to really hide it. I'm sure tehre's lot of nice people in there and the common man might be just great guys, but I feel they can't be trusted on nation level on.. ANYTHING. Including nukes.

	28-11-2004 04:04									#25
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Winston Iran doesn't "need" nukes because Israel has them. That's a phony argument. As long as they don't decide to attack Israel, what exactly do they have to fear?

Not really, considering Israel has attacked its neighbors more often then not.

	28-11-2004 04:06									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Pekka In fact it has assured everyone they will not nuke anyone unless they are nuked first.

LIES!!!!

Israel has never said any such thing. You want to know why? Because Israel maintains that they do not have any nukes, despite the fact the world knows better.

	28-11-2004 04:07									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No I'm pretty sure they have said it. I remember reading they will not retaliate to any attacks with nukes, including if they get attack with chemicals. It even wasn't that long ago.

And yes, they have said they don't officially have nukes. But I also remember reading that one, where they say they won't retaliate with nukes if they are chemically attacked, which I find odd.

	28-11-2004 04:10									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Pekka No I'm pretty sure they have said it.

Well you're wrong. If they admitted it, the U.S. would automatically slap sanctions on them. Because Israel doesn't admit it, the U.S. can officially pretend Israel doesn't have them, and is thus not obligated by law to impose sanctions.

	28-11-2004 04:12									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ok. I will admit I don't recollect the words exactly, so I might be wrong. Maybe they assured they wouldn't attack in any way if they were attacked. Something in those lines.

	28-11-2004 04:12									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Israeli nukes

Iranian nukes

dummies who can't tell the difference between a tolerant democracy and an Islamic state that supports terrorism.