30-11-2004 22:00									#91
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP See the way I see it, fascism and nazism were simply vehicles towards the Nietzschean ideal of power. If you could become master of people through a puppy dog cult, then that'd be fine too. Hitler choose racism & nationalism as his vehicles for accending to absolute power. The power is the key part, and yes that makes nazism and fascism very Nietzschean. At the same time, as Gepap and Imran note, Nietzsche doesn't give a wit about nationalism or racism. He cares about power.

No, he does not "care about power" in the sense you talk about- he would view hitler as a great example of the slave mentality, a nihilist peddling ideas of fear, and a mob following him as slaves.

Nietzsche is actually very liberterian in his idea of what people should become.

	30-11-2004 22:01									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Nazi party? but i'm not racist.

There were gay Nazis and there were Jews who worked as kapos. So why can't you, like some members of other minority groups, violate principle and become a Nazi?

	30-11-2004 22:02									#93
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Have you become a youth rights supporter?

no

	30-11-2004 22:05									#94
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So much for your talk about equal rights and fairness under the law. Hypocrite.

	30-11-2004 22:10									#96
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No, he does not "care about power" in the sense you talk about- he would view hitler as a great example of the slave mentality, a nihilist peddling ideas of fear, and a mob following him as slaves. Nietzsche is actually very liberterian in his idea of what people should become.

Libertarianism applies to all people, Nietzscheanism applies to one person. Libertarianism is maxiumum freedom for all, Nietzscheanism is maximum freedom for one.

Like I said, what ideas that one peddles is irrelevant. For example, I bet Nietzsche would (and probably did if I wanted to find a quote) praise the inventer of "slave morality", Jesus, as an example of the Nietzschean ideal. Jesus started a new course in human history, he imposed his will, his morality upon millions of people.

Again, Nietzsche doesn't care what ideas you peddle, he cares with how successful you are at peddling them.

	30-11-2004 22:13									#97
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP So much for your talk about equal rights and fairness under the law. Hypocrite.

No -- I just don't believe it's sane for a five year old child to have all the same rights that an adult citizen has.

	30-11-2004 22:15									#98
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP You read Nietzsche with rose colored glasses. He isn't saying "everyone should be free to do whatever they will, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else." No, that, he reasons is a corruption of the will. Nietzsche says you have an absolute freedom to do whatever you will." Period. My will to power is directly in opposition to your will to power.

Except if you read his anaylisis of why the slave mentality was necessary, is becuase a conscience is necessary for the overman- seeking power without conscience is essentially the blonde beats.

quote: The highest state possible for a Nietzsche individual is to be dictator of a nation, or several nations.

Of course not, since the nation is a decrepid crutch for the slaves, and anyone leading such an amalgam is no overman. A creator is the Nietzschean ideal- someone who invents new things no matter the consequences for what was old is the Nietzschean ideal. That is why he uses the child metaphor several times.

quote: You are right, he doesn't care about states or nationality, so in that sense, sure he isn't fascist. But he IS authoritarian. He favors one person having absolute power. Absolute will to power.

No.

quote: He hates slave morality insofar as it hinders that one great man from pursuiing his will to power. I bet he would approve of a slave morality with the explicit purpose of serving one great man's will to power. The classical morality he praised explicitly had a component of hero worship and honoring, praising, and obeying great men.

Wrong: he hates the slave morality because it is anti-life. He views the slaves as having internalized their will to power on themselves being too weak to overcome the blonde beats- in doing so they renounce life and become nihilists. HItler is a prime example himself. That is why Nietzsche hated anti-semitism: its a crutch for the weak minded.

quote: Forget this namby-pamby "you can do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" crap. That's not Nietzsche. That is slavish. Do what you want, if it hurts others, then who cares? Maybe thats not fascism, but it sounds damn close.

He is not namby-panby, as I said he supports creation with no regard to consequence-but dictators are not generally creators- instead they stiffle creators- the serve the slave morality. Remember what he said of punishment.

	30-11-2004 22:18									#99
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Like I said, what ideas that one peddles is irrelevant. For example, I bet Nietzsche would (and probably did if I wanted to find a quote) praise the inventer of "slave morality", Jesus, as an example of the Nietzschean ideal. Jesus started a new course in human history, he imposed his will, his morality upon millions of people. Again, Nietzsche doesn't care what ideas you peddle, he cares with how successful you are at peddling them.

Nietzsche does praise Jesus because jesus created a brand new belief system regardless of the consequences it would have to the status quo. He does not believe Jesus was the inventor of the slave morality thought: The Christ, the Annointed One perhaps, but that is not the same as Jesus of Nazareth, moral crusader.

And Jesus did NOT impose his views on anyone- If you remember, he was executed by Roman authorities at the age of 33 or so. It was people who co-opted his ideas into the slave morality that did so.

	30-11-2004 22:26									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ming.

I was only asking, no need to be rude.

(NO WINK SMILEY MING! HA! )

	30-11-2004 22:26									#101
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: He hates slave morality insofar as it hinders that one great man from pursuiing his will to power. I bet he would approve of a slave morality with the explicit purpose of serving one great man's will to power. The classical morality he praised explicitly had a component of hero worship and honoring, praising, and obeying great men. Wrong: he hates the slave morality because it is anti-life. He views the slaves as having internalized their will to power on themselves being too weak to overcome the blonde beats- in doing so they renounce life and become nihilists. HItler is a prime example himself. That is why Nietzsche hated anti-semitism: its a crutch for the weak minded.

Ok, then what does Nietzsche perscribe for those who aren't, and can never be overmen? He doesn't believe all people are capable of being an overman. In his praise for classical morality, it seemed to me that in his eyes the only purpose for the average people was to exhault and worship the overman. While perhaps differing from his definition of slave morality, it certainly seems slavish to me.

edit: Also, are you saying Hitler was a nihilist? I think Hitler was a true creator (or aspired to be) in the Nietzschean sense. The only fault Nietzsche would find with Hitler was the fact he failed.

	30-11-2004 22:27									#102
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quote: But he IS authoritarian. He favors one person having absolute power. Absolute will to power.

As GePap has pointed out, that is totally incorrect. The person having absolute power will only result in a slave morality type of system that stifles creativity.

quote: He hates slave morality insofar as it hinders that one great man from pursuiing his will to power.

Also incorrect. He doesn't focus on the one man, but on anyone who wants to be a creator. The slave morality hinders that spirit, such as the mob or the authoritarian government. The one who creates is to be lauded and creating systems where creators are pushed down is something to be reviled.

It's all about creation and promotion of creators. This is one of the main reasons that Fascism or social conservatism doesn't fit. They both want everyone to pull together for the state or the religion. Nietzsche says that is wrong. That destroys the creative spark of individuals.

	30-11-2004 22:30									#103
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quote: In his praise for classical morality, it seemed to me that in his eyes the only purpose for the average people was to exhault and worship the overman. While perhaps differing from his definition of slave morality, it certainly seems slavish to me.

The average person will exhault and worship the overman and that is what makes them weak. That is part of the slave morality. However, that should not be considered a goal. The overman is worthy of awe, but not slavish devotion. The slaves may not be able to overcome their worship, but that does not mean it is a good thing to be tolerated. Let them worship, but don't hold it up as good, and don't perpetuate it by saying that is the right thing for them to do.

	30-11-2004 22:31									#104
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I think his wackjobbiness would have found the current attempt at analysis of his ideas by the undermench pretty funny.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 22:33									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But he IS authoritarian. He favors one person having absolute power. Absolute will to power. As GePap has pointed out, that is totally incorrect. The person having absolute power will only result in a slave morality type of system that stifles creativity. quote: He hates slave morality insofar as it hinders that one great man from pursuiing his will to power. Also incorrect. He doesn't focus on the one man, but on anyone who wants to be a creator. The slave morality hinders that spirit, such as the mob or the authoritarian government. The one who creates is to be lauded and creating systems where creators are pushed down is something to be reviled. It's all about creation and promotion of creators. This is one of the main reasons that Fascism or social conservatism doesn't fit. They both want everyone to pull together for the state or the religion. Nietzsche says that is wrong. That destroys the creative spark of individuals.

You can't apply this philosophy to society at large, and democratize the sentiment to every man, woman and child. It just doesn't work. To be a leader, to be a creator, you need to have followers. A world with only leaders and no followers is anarchy, and indeed the anti-thesis to Nietzsche. How can someone be an overman, creator who puts in place new systems and new modes of thinking if he is the only one who follows it? If you apply this idea to everyone, that's what you get.

Nietzschean thought necessarily calls for one, or a very few, overman to create/destroy/do what they wish, and the mass of humanity to follow and slavishly worship those few.

	30-11-2004 22:33									#106
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quote: I think Hitler was a true creator (or aspired to be) in the Nietzschean sense. The only fault Nietzsche would find with Hitler was the fact he failed.

You see Nietzsche will blackened glasses. Hitler was not a true creator because his goal was a slave morality state with him at the center. That isn't creation, that is perpetuating repression. That is extending the slave morality. Hitler was a good example of one who internalized his Will to Power and blamed everything on the Jews. And failure of a creator doesn't diminish their attempts at creation.

	30-11-2004 22:34									#107
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quote: and yet Nietzsche made it clear that he favoured abstinence! why? not because God said so (THAT is slave morality) but because it contributed to the biological/psychological/spiritual betterment of the individual by making him feel stronger by the absorption of semen into the blood... in other words, to Nietzsche abstinence was good... was practical... it's wasn't good because God commanded it and it's opposite (sex) was declared evil by God!

So speer your abstinent to perserve your precious bodily fluids.

	30-11-2004 22:37									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think his wackjobbiness would have found the current attempt at analysis of his ideas by the undermench pretty funny. -Arrian

Agreed, hehe.

The fact we discuss it at all plays right into his hands. Nietzschean philosophy was not a grand recipie for humanity. It was a clever prank/scheme for Nietzsche to exhault himself. It is clear from his writings that the greatest examle of an overman is Nietzsche himself. By discussing his theories you just lend further credit to his claim.

It is genious in fact. But so self-serving

	30-11-2004 22:37									#110
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quote: To be a leader, to be a creator, you need to have followers. A world with only leaders and no followers is anarchy, and indeed the anti-thesis to Nietzsche. How can someone be an overman, creator who puts in place new systems and new modes of thinking if he is the only one who follows it? If you apply this idea to everyone, that's what you get.

A follower and a slavish devotee are two vastly different things. Trotsky followed Lenin, but that doesn't mean he had a slave mentality to Lenin. Hamilton followed Washington, but that doesn't mean he had a slave mentality in slavish devotion to Washington.

Leaders can have followers who can think for themselves. They don't require slaves in order to lead.

quote: Nietzschean thought necessarily calls for one, or a very few, overman to create/destroy/do what they wish, and the mass of humanity to follow and slavishly worship those few.

Blackened glasses once again. He doesn't want the masses to slavishly worship. Why do you think he constantly speaks out against the slave mentality? Though he does realize that people will do so. However, if shouldn't be promoted.

	30-11-2004 22:39									#111
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quote: It was a clever prank/scheme for Nietzsche to exhault himself.

And here we hit it. You are so biased against Nietzsche that you can't even discuss his writings with any rationality. The ideas are uncomfortable to think about and thus you confine them into the dark. In Freud-speak we may think of this as a reaction-formation.

	30-11-2004 22:41									#112
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Why should being a creator and being a nihilist be mutually exclusive? In fact, creation without regard for the consequences sounds fairly nihilistic to me.

	30-11-2004 22:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ok, then what does Nietzsche perscribe for those who aren't, and can never be overmen? He doesn't believe all people are capable of being an overman. In his praise for classical morality, it seemed to me that in his eyes the only purpose for the average people was to exhault and worship the overman. While perhaps differing from his definition of slave morality, it certainly seems slavish to me.

As Imran says, the common man may marvel (but not worship) at the overman- thought in fact there are no overmen- overmen being a later stage in the possible development of man. As for the classic tradition, while he finds it better than the slave mentality, he feels it lacked depth- which is why the creation of the consciousness in the slave is crucial for the attainment of the overman.

quote: edit: Also, are you saying Hitler was a nihilist? I think Hitler was a true creator (or aspired to be) in the Nietzschean sense. The only fault Nietzsche would find with Hitler was the fact he failed.

What did Hitler create? Take jesus- he preached, but was then killed. It was only decades after that his devoted followers kept the ideas he created alive and eventually those ideas would sweep the world. 50 years after he killed himself, what ideas of Hitler are still percolating out there? That is not an issue of failure- anyone who creates something can't fail in that sense-trying to create and being a creator are two different things. That is the difference between someone who doddles on the side and an artist.

	30-11-2004 22:45									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Why should being a creator and being a nihilist be mutually exclusive? In fact, creation without regard for the consequences sounds fairly nihilistic to me.

How could something that creates(as opposed to simply destroys) be nihilistic?

	30-11-2004 22:48									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It was a clever prank/scheme for Nietzsche to exhault himself. And here we hit it. You are so biased against Nietzsche that you can't even discuss his writings with any rationality. The ideas are uncomfortable to think about and thus you confine them into the dark. In Freud-speak we may think of this as a reaction-formation.

Ok, lets quickly skim the chapter titles from Ecce Homo:
"Why I Am So Wise"
"Why I Am So Clever"
"Why I Write Such Good Books"
"Why I Am a Destiny"

	30-11-2004 22:51									#116
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At OzzyKP's "reading" of that last chapters.

I wonder what Bozo was teaching that class.

The funny bit is that if you actually read the chapters, you see many of the predictions he made, particularly the one of coming strife, were right.

	30-11-2004 22:51									#117
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quote: I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous—a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite.—

	30-11-2004 22:53									#118
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TNT! I'm dyna-mite! TNT!

quote: See me ride out of the sunset On your colour TV screen Out for all that I can get If you know what I mean Women to the left of me And women to the right Ain't got no gun Ain't got no knife But don't you start no fight CHORUS: 'Cause I'm T.N.T. I'm dynamite T.N.T. and I'll win the fight T.N.T. I'm a power load T.N.T. watch me explode I'm dirty, mean and mighty unclean I'm a wanted man Public enemy number one Understand So lock up your daughter Lock up your wife Lock up your back door And run for your life The man is back in town Don't you mess me 'round

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 22:53									#119
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See, perfect example- that is completely right.

	30-11-2004 22:54									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian TNT! I'm dyna-mite! TNT! -Arrian

AC/DC, the true overmen