30-11-2004 11:07									#1
	Red Cross: Torture at Gitmo Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: The International Committee of the Red Cross has charged in confidential reports to the United States government that the American military has intentionally used psychological and sometimes physical coercion "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. [...] The team of humanitarian workers, which included experienced medical personnel, also asserted that some doctors and other medical workers at Guantánamo were participating in planning for interrogations, in what the report called "a flagrant violation of medical ethics." Doctors and medical personnel conveyed information about prisoners' mental health and vulnerabilities to interrogators, the report said, sometimes directly, but usually through a group called the Behavioral Science Consultation Team, or B.S.C.T. The team, known informally as Biscuit, is composed of psychologists and psychological workers who advise the interrogators, the report said [...] The report of the June visit said investigators had found a system devised to break the will of the prisoners at Guantánamo, who now number about 550, and make them wholly dependent on their interrogators through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions." Investigators said that the methods used were increasingly "more refined and repressive" than learned about on previous visits. "The construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture," the report said. It said that in addition to the exposure to loud and persistent noise and music and to prolonged cold, detainees were subjected to "some beatings." The report did not say how many of the detainees were subjected to such treatment. [...]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/30/p...artner=homepage

You might remember that the Red Cross were among the first to warn of abuse in Abu Ghraib.

Well, good thing Alberto Gonzales is on the job.

	30-11-2004 11:11									#2
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It seems obvious to me that the current board of the Red Cross is defining torture very differently then the Geneva and Hague Conventions did. Both conventions give very exact definitions of what constitutes torture and the very fact that these people cannot name which part of the conventions are supposedly being violated tells me exactly how frivolous these claims are.

	30-11-2004 11:14									#3
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I call humiliating acts and beatings torture. What do you call it?

	30-11-2004 11:17									#4
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So these people consider solitary confinment to be torture? What a farse! That is a universally accepted punishment for disruptive prisoners and is practiced in just about every prison in the world.

	30-11-2004 11:18									#5
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Beatings and being sexially degraded are a far cry from solitary confinement.

	30-11-2004 11:18									#6
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And the UN Convention Against Torture (signed and ratified by the US, btw) also defines this behavior as torture:

quote: For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

It ain't frivolous at all.

	30-11-2004 11:20									#7
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RED Cross - RED flag.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

	30-11-2004 11:21									#8
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That seems more than a bit overbroad.

	30-11-2004 11:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That seems more than a bit overbroad.

That's nice, but since the US ratified it, it happens to be the law of the land.

	30-11-2004 11:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Beatings and being sexially degraded are a far cry from solitary confinement.

That's funny. The Red Cross didn't claim those occured at Gitmo. Don't you think that if there was any creditable evidence they would have spoken up about it? Of course they would have so how about sticking to the facts?

	30-11-2004 11:25									#11
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Which is kind of irrelevent to the point I was making. It's cool you thought I didn't already know that though.

	30-11-2004 11:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's nice, but since the US ratified it, it happens to be the law of the land.

I'd like to hear more about this. Do you have a link which gives the whole text of the treaty and shows if and when the treaty was ratified?

	30-11-2004 11:26									#13
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quote: detainees were subjected to "some beatings."

	30-11-2004 11:26									#14
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quote: Which is kind of irrelevent to the point I was making.

No, not really. I was pointing out that your 'overbroad' feeling was irrelevent.

	30-11-2004 11:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's funny. The Red Cross didn't claim those occured at Gitmo. Don't you think that if there was any creditable evidence they would have spoken up about it? Of course they would have so how about sticking to the facts?

quote: The report of the June visit said investigators had found a system devised to break the will of the prisoners at Guantánamo, who now number about 550, and make them wholly dependent on their interrogators through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions." Investigators said that the methods used were increasingly "more refined and repressive" than learned about on previous visits. "The construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture," the report said. It said that in addition to the exposure to loud and persistent noise and music and to prolonged cold, detainees were subjected to "some beatings." The report did not say how many of the detainees were subjected to such treatment.

After AbuG, do you need photos of what 'humiliating acts' are?

Did someone redefine 'beating' while I wasn't paying attention?

	30-11-2004 11:29									#16
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I'd say that even if we accept those difinitions then there is considerable latitude in determining what does or does not break those rules. Some people could claim that only allow one shower a day or not having cable tv breaks the coercing section. There is considerable room for reasonable people to disagree.

	30-11-2004 11:30									#17
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Oh I think most international conventions define things poorly on a wide range of issues. However to prove it irrelevent you'd have to tell me how throwing a disruptive prisoner into solitary wouldn't be considered torture according to the defintion you posted.

	30-11-2004 11:31									#18
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That depends on how you define 'is', yer honor.

	30-11-2004 11:32									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: detainees were subjected to "some beatings."

I'd like to see the context. If a prisoner is being violent and has to be restrained then some level of force is justified to regain control of the prisoner. Are they whining about that or do they have creditable proof that anything else has happened? My guess is that if they had a leg to stand on then they'd give explicit details.

	30-11-2004 11:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither After AbuG, do you need photos of what 'humiliating acts' are? Did someone redefine 'beating' while I wasn't paying attention?

Not one person as shown any creditable accussations that anything remotely similiar to Abu Gharib has occured at Gitmo. Further the US showed that once creditable claims surface they quickly deal with it in a legal manner.

As for beatings see my previous post.

	30-11-2004 11:35									#21
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I think, given the track record, the onus is on the US to demonstrate restraint and humane treatment of these prisoners, not the other way around.

Or do we think the Red Cross is another department of Old Europe now?

	30-11-2004 11:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Not one person as shown any creditable accussations that anything remotely similiar to Abu Gharib has occured at Gitmo. Further the US showed that once creditable claims surface they quickly deal with it in a legal manner. As for beatings see my previous post.

'Deal with it'? You mean that they prosecute a bunch of enlisted and other junior ranks, maybe sack a reservist brigadeer, and then ignore the role of intelligence officers in the proceedings and the responsibility of the rest of the chain of command?

Come on, Oerdin, you have your soon to be Attourney General writing memos on how to justify all this ****, and you think AbuG was an isolated incident?

	30-11-2004 11:39									#23
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It seems that Oerdin didn't read the OP .

quote: Do you have a link which gives the whole text of the treaty and shows if and when the treaty was ratified?

Text:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

Oh, and before you ask, 'lawful sanctions' are those deemed lawful under international law.

Reagan signed the treaty in 1988 and the Senate finally approved it in 1994, with the proding of Clinton.

http://www.irct.org/usr/irct/home.nsf/unid/BKEN-5YPF3N

The US is among the list of ratifying countries.

	30-11-2004 11:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think, given the track record, the onus is on the US to demonstrate restraint and humane treatment of these prisoners, not the other way around. Or do we think the Red Cross is another department of Old Europe now?

I believe the US has a proven track record of punishing any and all people involved in tourture or illegal acts. Further, I believe that UN conventions are great for peace time but during war time we must be bound by the laws of war which are explicitly defined in the Geneva and Hague Conventions.

Under both of these conventions the methods used at Gitmo are legal and authorised.

	30-11-2004 11:43									#25
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quote: However to prove it irrelevent you'd have to tell me how throwing a disruptive prisoner into solitary wouldn't be considered torture according to the defintion you posted.

I love this focusing on the singular incident. Why don't you take it in conjunction with temp extremes, use of forced positions, humiliating behavior, etc, which any international lawyer would agree creates severe mental suffering. Also it ain't solitary for 'disruptive' prisioners, but for those that won't talk (as the OP said the behavior was for breaking the will of the prisioners so they'd talk).

	30-11-2004 11:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I believe the US has a proven track record of punishing any and all people involved in tourture or illegal acts. Further, I believe that UN conventions are great for peace time but during war time we must be bound by the laws of war which are explicitly defined in the Geneva and Hague Conventions. Under both of these conventions the methods used at Gitmo are legal and authorised.

And you know this because you know for a fact that no prisoners have been beaten or walked like dogs?

What about the reports from the Brits released from Gitmo before AbuG hit the news?

What are the chances they were making it up knowing what we know now?

	30-11-2004 11:44									#27
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quote: I think, given the track record, the onus is on the US to demonstrate restraint and humane treatment of these prisoners, not the other way around.

Especially since the US has continually attempted to keep the Red Cross and Amnesty Int'l out of Gitmo for the longest time.

	30-11-2004 11:47									#28
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quote: I believe that UN conventions are great for peace time but during war time we must be bound by the laws of war which are explicitly defined in the Geneva and Hague Conventions.

REALLY? And what legal argument do you have for this? Do the Convention on Torture specifically authorize it being suspended for warfare? I don't see any derogation provision in it.

	30-11-2004 11:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I love this focusing on the singular incident.

I'm not really talking about Gitmo. So I don't really understand your insistance with focusing on it. That would be a completely different conversation than the one we are having now if I were. We're discussing the definition you posted and how overbroad it is.

	30-11-2004 11:59									#30
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quote: We're discussing the definition you posted and how overbroad it is.

And the post still stands. When you take everything in conjunction it rises to severe. If you are just putting in disruptive prisoners in solitary it doesn't. If you are putting people in solitary for order or safety purposes it is part (inherant, incidental, or arising from) of a lawful sanction (Second sentance of Part 1, Article 1). If you do it to break their will to get them to confess, it isn't.

Secondly, severe mental pain has to be shown. If the person is in solitary for months, then it definetly is torturous.

And even if it were overbroad, it doesn't matter. People signed and ratified it. The language was agreed to. Thus that which violates it is torture.