09-12-2004 01:07									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And hows that not torture?

	09-12-2004 01:09									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Because saying, for instance, "The guards will shoot you if you're escaping" would then be torture.

	09-12-2004 01:11									#123
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeah, because it IS torture.

	09-12-2004 01:14									#124
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Then what the hell are you supposed to do to escaping prisoners if you can't get them back alive?

	09-12-2004 01:14									#125
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Using a bluff to scare someone is torture?

That seems like a stretch to me.

It would also seem, however, that much worse than that is going on down in Gitmo.

-Arrian

	09-12-2004 01:18									#126
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because saying, for instance, "The guards will shoot you if you're escaping" would then be torture.

That isn't a threat of imminent death. Being shot while escaping is a consqeuence of action.

Now, if they where told "You will be shot if you're escaping" and then forced to attempt an escape, that would be torture.


Can you see the different between saying "The guards will shoot you if you're escaping" and "The guards will shoot you if you don't do this"? (Of course, what "this" is can also be a varying factor in it being torture or not)

	09-12-2004 01:24									#127
	Put an end to popups!

quote: That isn't a threat of imminent death.

It is as much as any threat of death to obtain compliance is.

	09-12-2004 01:29									#128
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If action A can cause severe mental harm in prisoners, then purposefully exposing them to action A is torture, whether it's attavhing electrodes to their testicles or telling them they're going to get a bullet in the brain. Not a legal definition, maybe, but a logical one. Find me a psychiatrist that has ever said that prisoners can suffer severe mental anguish from the specific knowledge that they may die if they attempt to escape (In of itself, that is), and then I'll accept that that definition of torture is stupid.

	09-12-2004 01:30									#129
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: That isn't a threat of imminent death. It is as much as any threat of death to obtain compliance is.

No it's not.

	09-12-2004 01:31									#130
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gibsie If action A can cause severe mental harm in prisoners, then purposefully exposing them to action A is torture, whether it's attavhing electrodes to their testicles or telling them they're going to get a bullet in the brain. Not a legal definition, maybe, but a logical one. Find me a psychiatrist that has ever said that prisoners can suffer severe mental anguish from the specific knowledge that they may die if they attempt to escape (In of itself, that is), and then I'll accept that that definition of torture is stupid.

Sure. If they feel they have some moral duty to escape and fight for their country (just like they would have some moral duty not to give us info), then threatening to kill them if they were escaping would be pretty equivalent to threatening to kill them if they didn't tell us stuff.

	09-12-2004 01:34									#131
	Inflate your Upload Space

You cant shoot escaping POWs or intimidate them with it before they do so.

	09-12-2004 01:35									#132
	Increase Your PM Length

What the heck are you supposed to do to them?

(And where does it say it's specifically in relation to POW's?)

	09-12-2004 01:38									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Try them or release them FFS!

What is wrong with you? Thats how justice system works

	09-12-2004 01:40									#134
	Increase Your PM Length

Uh, you're specifically allowed to keep POW's until the conflict ends. And there's no international law saying you can't hold your own citizens indefinately. And foreign nationals without diplomatic immunity are probably open game, pretty much (though it could be a casus belli).

However, I really can't tell the context of the quote, because Ramo's link doesn't seem to work.

	09-12-2004 01:43									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Sure. If they feel they have some moral duty to escape and fight for their country (just like they would have some moral duty not to give us info), then threatening to kill them if they were escaping would be pretty equivalent to threatening to kill them if they didn't tell us stuff.

Which orifice are you pulling this from again? Any prisoner anywhere might want to escape, but the threat of killing someone if they attempt to escape does not constitute mental anguish. You might as well go back to trying to convince us animals don't feel pain.

	09-12-2004 01:44									#136
	Got spare money?

Is mental anguish caused if you threat to kill someone if they don't give you info?

	09-12-2004 01:47									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Not the first time, but keep at it, day in, day out, I'm sure it would.

I read some tuff on interrogation in New Scientist the other week where an Israeli interrogator told how he'd threaten to kill the families of terrorist suspects and make it believable- going by the transcript of the interview with one of his subjects, that certainly did the trick (The trick being to cause life-lasting mental pain).

	09-12-2004 01:49									#138
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Then what if you regularly did the same the wrt escaping?

	09-12-2004 01:52									#139
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No offense Kuciwalker, but i'm not going to waste anymore time arguing with you, since you have no idea about peoples basic rights.

www.un.org is a good place to start from. Good luck

	09-12-2004 01:54									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If the process you're talking about has no other elements of torture in it, and is for example, a guard casually occasionally (or every day or whatever, or saying it over and over) telling a prisoner that if he tries to go over the wall he'll be shot, I can't imagine that ever upsetting someone.

If someone's being interrogated full-on, and the interrogator starts telling the prisoner that he thinks he's trying to escape, and starts going over every inch of his cell and the grounds with him, telling him that every piece of dirt or any sudden move is evidence that he's trying to escape and he'd get a bullet in him then I could envisage that being torture. But Isimply cannot imagine a situation where telling a prisoner they're at risk of being killed for trying to escape would hurt them that much [without already having elements of torture in it].

	09-12-2004 05:11									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So if you just say "talk or I'll shoot you" once, and nicely, it's not torture?

	09-12-2004 05:26									#142
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As with most vague definitions, context is everything. Say it with a gun in the prisoner's mouth and it's torture. Say it after you've kept the prisoner awake for 3 days with regular beatings, and it's a part of the torture. Call a prisoner into an interrogation chamber and just say it to them in a way that the prisoner willnot seriously believe his life is in danger, and it's not torture.

Your quote indicated that threats of "imminent death" are only torture if part of a prcoess of abuse to the prisoner. You could work this all out yourself if you weren't working under the mindset of, "The US never tortures anyone and if anyone says otherwise they're mishuided or lying".

	09-12-2004 05:36									#143
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: As with most vague definitions, context is everything. Say it with a gun in the prisoner's mouth and it's torture. Say it after you've kept the prisoner awake for 3 days with regular beatings, and it's a part of the torture. Call a prisoner into an interrogation chamber and just say it to them in a way that the prisoner willnot seriously believe his life is in danger, and it's not torture.

So as long as he doesn't believe it's a credible threat, it's OK?

	09-12-2004 05:36									#144
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Your quote indicated that threats of "imminent death" are only torture if part of a prcoess of abuse to the prisoner. You could work this all out yourself if you weren't working under the mindset of, "The US never tortures anyone and if anyone says otherwise they're mishuided or lying".

I've never said anything of the sort. I'm claiming that the particular definition of torture put forward is overbroad and absurd.

	09-12-2004 05:54									#145
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker [q]So as long as he doesn't believe it's a credible threat, it's OK?

Since you're confused, I've gone back and read what you quoted, so, to clarify, the aim of the threat must be to cause "mental anguish". If the person subjected to torture isn't bothered by what's going on, he's not likely to suffer mental anguish, is he? Look at that, you've made me start asking patronisingly rhetorical questions. That doesn't make it okay to make death threats to such a subject though, however. The crux is, according to point (1), that the intent of the interrogator must be to cause the mental anguish. The subject might not be bothered by attempts, but if the intent is there, it is torture.

Think of it in terms of an abusive spouse: if a husband repeatedly threatens to kill his wife if she dares look at a man, doesn't let her leave the house, and has her in fear of her life, that's torture. If a wife jokingly threatens to kill her husband if he doesn't put the toilet seat down the next time, that's not torture. Do you understand the concept of "context" yet, or should unca gibsie start tawking wike a lil baby?

	09-12-2004 06:00									#146
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, then it goes the other way - if what I do isn't meant to cause mental anguish, but merely gain information, then I can do whatever I want.

	09-12-2004 06:05									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Well, then it goes the other way - if what I do isn't meant to cause mental anguish, but merely gain information, then I can do whatever I want.

If it's gaining information by method of causing mental anguish, the goal is still to cause mental anguish.

	09-12-2004 06:11									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh bloody semantics... Replace "intent to cause mental anguish" with "actions that in the eyes of an objective observer would be deemed to be likely to cause mental anguish". That was a bit of a flub on my part, I must admit, as I suppose successful interrogators are not there to cause pain but to extract information.

	09-12-2004 06:41									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: That it's absurd.

It's not absurd. That's torture. And it doesn't matter if you find it absurd, this is the law.

And you're just assuming that the law implies certain things that don't clearly follow, and calling it absurd. Saying that there's prolonged mental harm due to threatening people who escape with death is in no way an obvious statement. In fact, I seriously doubt that is how the courts intepret the law.

And both of my links work fine, I just used them.

	09-12-2004 06:47									#150
	Got spare money?

And the pussification of Western society reaches a new low...