01-12-2004 11:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So this is my 3rd attempt. Are these retarded babies born or not when they kill them?

Killed after being born it seems.

	01-12-2004 11:48									#32
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Why should the infant be forced to suffer years of constant, excruciating pain?

	01-12-2004 11:50									#33
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This thread is evidence that liberals just don't believe human life is really special in any way. If it is thought that one's life must be difficult, better to snuff it.

	01-12-2004 11:53									#34
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OZzyKP, well that's what I'm wondering. I mean, sometimes when baby is badly retarded, that's usually an opening for possible abortion. I mean that they still do that sometimes legally in many countries, not just the Netherlands. It's not my opinion, if my baby is retarded, I'm going to have it anyway.

However, if they are already born, they can eliminate them like that???? That seems kind of.. uhm.. I don't know. They better be in pain straight from hell 24/7 and I'd have to see it in my own eyes and nothing could be done to the baby and it would never be any better at all.. then I don't know but just with the face value it seems kind of like a ... bad idea. I don't know how to handle that information. I'm in a blank mode. Seems like the wrong thing to do though. For me it sounds like that. But it better be stick through your head and car running over you all the time kind of pain before I could even consider it an option. Just mildly 'normally' retarded, I think that could be a problem for me and be over the limits of acceptable.

	01-12-2004 11:53									#35
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This thread is evidence that conservatives trivialize health conditions that cause unbearable pain.

	01-12-2004 11:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP It is a reasonably safe assumption that all people desire life. It is our nature. Yes, even infants.

Infants have no concept of death. I know I didn't until I was at least 5-6 years old. I certainly didn't have any notion of my own mortality until much later.

Infants do have a very real concept of pain and suffering, however. What they desire is to not have pain.

quote: Besides, I'd rather err on the side of caution, i.e. life. If the infant decides a few years later he would prefer death, that could easily be arranged. A dead infant gets no second chances.

And it could be that your "err" ends up prolonging the suffering of someone who didn't want it and would in no way thank you for it.

We're not talking here about babies who can have second chances. We're talking about babies that have no chance. These are cases where the infant would likely survive only a very short painful time anyway. And also cases where the infant would most likely never even be able to make such a decision.

	01-12-2004 11:56									#37
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I don't see how it is your position to determine how much pain I may or may not be feeling. And especially not your position to determine how much pain I may or may not face in the future. And also is not your place to determine if it is worth it.

Same is true for anyone else.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 11:59									#38
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Are you saying that you have as much competence to make decisions as an infant? Should infants have the right to smoke, drink, drive, etc.,?

	01-12-2004 11:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This thread is evidence that liberals just don't believe human life is really special in any way. If it is thought that one's life must be difficult, better to snuff it.

Your post is evidence you think only in black/white.

We're not talking about euthanizing someone just because their life would be difficult. That's a strawman if I ever saw it.

I'll reiterate for your benefit:

quote: Groningen estimated the protocol would be applicable in about 10 cases per year in the Netherlands, a country of 16 million people.

This is only for the most extreme cases, where life is guaranteed to be short and horrible anyway. I have no idea what's so "special" about blithely letting little babies live on in agony just because some people are too gutless to make a really tough decision.

	01-12-2004 12:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So this is my 3rd attempt. Are these retarded babies born or not when they kill them?

AFAIK these cases are not about retarted babies. It's about infants with disabilities who suffer chronic severe pain that cannot be significantly eased with medicine.

	01-12-2004 12:00									#41
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No, but I am saying that their lives should not be taken from them.

That is a fairly big decision, and one that only they (if anyone) should be able to make. If they are too young to make it (like infants are) than they should be supported until they can make it.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:00									#42
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An important point:

A lot of these babies are born extremely premature (i'm talking at around 20-24 weeks here) - this is thanks to advances in medical science that makes them viable, they would have simply died before.

The chances of a baby suffering severe brain damage is much, much higher when it is born very premature as, although the technology to keep them alive has advanced the technology to nurture them as they would be in the womb has not.

	01-12-2004 12:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I don't see how it is your position to determine how much pain I may or may not be feeling. And especially not your position to determine how much pain I may or may not face in the future. And also is not your place to determine if it is worth it. Same is true for anyone else. Jon Miller

Would you say doctors might be in a position to determine this? I certainly do.

	01-12-2004 12:03									#44
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For example Ramo. I think that being an Anarchist is a retarded position. Therefore I think that you are retarded (this here is a fallacy, and so just bear with me for arguments sake). As a retard you should be put out of your misery, because your life would just be meaningless pain. As a retard, what you say would be pretty meaningless and can be ignored.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:03									#45
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quote: No, but I am saying that their lives should not be taken from them. That is a fairly big decision, and one that only they (if anyone) should be able to make. If they are too young to make it (like infants are) than they should be supported until they can make it.

So, again, why should the infant be forced to suffer years of constant, excruciating pain?

And how old is old enough to decide to euthanise oneself?

	01-12-2004 12:04									#46
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Nacht, ahh ok..

the way it was posted I thought it was about just retarded little babies. That would seem extremely .. evil and bad, not to mention very wrong.

But I see now that the PAIN is the main issue. It still is a tough question for me. I don't want to say to anyone they can't do that if it's possible and they all want to and doctors agree, if the little baby is in horrific pains and can never get any relief from it and it's just horrible and there's no chance and the baby will die soon anyway. i don't want to forbid it from anyone. I might be in that situation myself some day. pray to God I won't. That would be a horrible decision to make, but maybe I would think differently, seeing that little baby in horrific pains in front of my eyes knowing this is it and it ain't going to be any better at all. I don't know. I would have to make a tough call, either way.

	01-12-2004 12:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Would you say doctors might be in a position to determine this? I certainly do.

No I don't. Doctors are humans too, and have all of humans biases. Recall that doctors are the ones who did the tests on blacks in the 50s.

Note, I think I am OK with Euthanasia.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller For example Ramo. I think that being an Anarchist is a retarded position. Therefore I think that you are retarded (this here is a fallacy, and so just bear with me for arguments sake). As a retard you should be put out of your misery, because your life would just be meaningless pain. As a retard, what you say would be pretty meaningless and can be ignored. Jon Miller

Irrelevant, as they aren't killing all retarded children in the Netherlands. Boy, when you guys latch on to a strawman, you're like dobermans, aren't you?

	01-12-2004 12:07									#49
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There is a similiarity here. The point is killing people because we know what is better for them when they can't give consent.

The same can be said for retarded people.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller No I don't. Doctors are humans too, and have all of humans biases. Recall that doctors are the ones who did the tests on blacks in the 50s.

That's why this isn't one doctor or only doctors who make the decision. It has to be a unanimous decision between many medical professionals AND the parents.

And I think doctors are plenty qualified--certainly more so than you and I--to diagnose their patients and how much pain they are in. Especially when it comes to the most extreme cases (which is what we're talking about here).

	01-12-2004 12:09									#51
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I am not OK with the concept, as put in my post above yours.

And it is a bunch of doctors who did those tests.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:10									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller There is a similiarity here. The point is killing people because we know what is better for them when they can't give consent. The same can be said for retarded people. Jon Miller

Except that this law is about euthanizing the most extreme cases wherein there is no hope for longterm survival and there is real suffering going on.

You might as well cited euthanizing pets as your strawman, it would have had the same relevance.

	01-12-2004 12:13									#53
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quote: For example Ramo. I think that being an Anarchist is a retarded position. Therefore I think that you are retarded (this here is a fallacy, and so just bear with me for arguments sake). As a retard you should be put out of your misery, because your life would just be meaningless pain. As a retard, what you say would be pretty meaningless and can be ignored.

So you believe that infants should be able to smoke crack. Since who are you to say that you know what is better for the infant than the infant?

	01-12-2004 12:13									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller And it is a bunch of doctors who did those tests.

So? Are you now villifying doctors as blood-thirsty baby killers who are eager to murder infants at the first chance they get? That's what it sounds like. That you'd so dismiss the sentiments of doctors in this is really offensive to me. As if they don't have an emotional stake in it. I'm sure Guynemer or Doc S would be glad to read such sentiments.

And do you have any valid reasons to criticize those tests, or are you just offended by their outcome?

	01-12-2004 12:25									#55
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Anytime that you start saying that something that is human is less than human you run into problems. Be they slavery or the holocaust. That is what you are doing by saying that I might as well be arguing about pets. It is different, we are dealing with human being here.

And yes, I have a valid reason to criticize the tests. To not tell someone that they have a disease, and treat it, and allow them to pass it on to others is beyond just criminal.

Ramo, I am saying that be killed is a very different level of decision than smoking crack. But you being an anarchist I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand that.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:28									#56
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Yes, I'm just a retard that can't understand your superior ethics.

	01-12-2004 12:30									#57
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No, but some sort of logic circuit does seem to not be working right if you can determine the difference between smoking crack and deciding to be killed. Also, note that we don't allow infants to smoke crack either (Actually we don't allow anyone to, and we are only beginning to allow some to kill themselves).

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:31									#58
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Note that I did say that going from your position being retarded to you being retarded was false. And I don't think that you are a retard. I just find your logic very suspect in any discussion of politics or ethics.

Jon Miller

	01-12-2004 12:35									#59
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I'm using the same logical fallacy that you were using. That making decisions for those who are incompetent to make such decisions is somehow wrong. You haven't demonstrated why this argument applies to the decision of whether to live or die, and not to any other decisions.

quote: Also, note that we don't allow infants to smoke crack either

Yes, that's the point. We make decisions for them, because they are not competent to make such decisions themselves.

	01-12-2004 12:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Anytime that you start saying that something that is human is less than human you run into problems. Be they slavery or the holocaust. That is what you are doing by saying that I might as well be arguing about pets. It is different, we are dealing with human being here.

I didn't say the babies were less than human. I don't think pets are just mere dumb animals we should kill on a whim, though. Another strawman. And, I suppose, an interesting look at our perspectives.

quote: And yes, I have a valid reason to criticize the tests. To not tell someone that they have a disease, and treat it, and allow them to pass it on to others is beyond just criminal.

What the hell are you talking about? This isn't about a "disease" that can be "cured." We're back to the strawman that doctors are going to be slaughtering the weak and helpless who could otherwise go on to live just fine. That's not what these cases are about--they're about the very extreme situations. The article says it explicitely several times: the terminally ill.

This isn't a valid reason, regardless. I want a valid scientific reason why the medical knowledge of doctors shouldn't be trusted to determine the pain and suffering of an infant. I'm sure Ben Kenobi can furnish you with lots of information on how even preborns can feel pain.