01-12-2004 05:36									#1
	Dutch kill babies, the comatose and the mentally retarded! Increase Your PM Length

In the manner of the Third Reich, where euthanasia progressed from the voluntary to the involuntary, the Dutch have taken the next step. They now kill babies, the mentally retarded and the comatose on the grounds that they have no free will to begin with.

I presume, as with the Third Reich, a lot of this has to with reducing the cost of the universal health care system.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20.../D86MFKG80.html

	01-12-2004 05:38									#2
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The Dutch always did have that German efficiency.

	01-12-2004 05:42									#3
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Maybe they'll go after homosexuals too.

	01-12-2004 05:45									#4
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That would get rid of the entire navy, don't be silly.

	01-12-2004 06:04									#5
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It's amazing how Germanic they can be while being stoned or rolling on E

	01-12-2004 06:08									#6
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quote: I presume, as with the Third Reich, a lot of this has to with reducing the cost of the universal health care system.

Sometimes I wonder how you get to your conclusions. Nazi Germany engaged in sterilization to lower the cost of universal health care...... yeeeeaah..

Btw, love how you Godwinized your thread in the first post .

	01-12-2004 06:32									#7
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quote: Nazi Germany engaged in sterilization to lower the cost of universal health care...... yeeeeaah..

No.

Nazi Germany wiped out the retarded people in order to lower the cost of universal health care, just like Ned wrote.

	01-12-2004 06:36									#8
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The Dutch

	01-12-2004 06:43									#9
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"However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States and elsewhere, but that the practice is hidden.

"Measures that might marginally extend a child's life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day," said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College in Davidson, N.C., and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, N.C. "Everybody knows that it happens, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they're not going to do."

More than half of all deaths occur under medical supervision, so it's really about management and method of death, Stell said."

Disturbing that the doctors take this authority on themselves...I would want parents and people from the community involved in such drastic decisions.

The decision to let someone die, let alone the decision to kill, should not be left to medical staff alone, but approached in a serious and inclusive, non-arrogant manner.

	01-12-2004 06:43									#10
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St Leo: You wear glasses. Therefore, you are obviously, in a way, retarded. In a perfect society, there can exist no retarded people. I think it's time to call some doctors to eliminate you, in order to glorify the "natural evolution" the article mentioned.

Starting to see my point here?

	01-12-2004 06:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by VJ St Leo: You wear glasses. Therefore, you are obviously, in a way, retarded. In a perfect society, there can exist no retarded people. I think it's time to call some doctors to eliminate you, in order to glorify the "natural evolution" the article mentioned. Starting to see my point here?

I wasn't born retarded. It took me years to get this retarded and I am damn proud of every second.

	01-12-2004 08:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Disturbing that the doctors take this authority on themselves...I would want parents and people from the community involved in such drastic decisions. The decision to let someone die, let alone the decision to kill, should not be left to medical staff alone, but approached in a serious and inclusive, non-arrogant manner.

This is the heart of the matter. An independant council determining life and death outside of parental wishes.

Considering the costs of prenatal and post natal care the allegation that this is cost driven motivation is not outlandish.

	01-12-2004 08:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe This is the heart of the matter. An independant council determining life and death outside of parental wishes.

From the article:

"The guideline says euthanasia is acceptable when the child's medical team and independent doctors agree the pain cannot be eased and there is no prospect for improvement, and when parents think it's best."

I took that to mean that an agreement has to be reached from all three parties--the child's doctors, the independent doctors and the parents--before euthanization can be done.

So long as all these parties have a veto, I think this is a sound law. It would then only be in the most absolutely dire cases where it could be inacted.

Oh, and good to see that Ned still hasn't had a thought that he hasn't gotten from the Drudge Report first.

	01-12-2004 08:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Maybe they'll go after homosexuals too.

Do you know how retarded this troll is?

	01-12-2004 08:47									#15
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If other countries killed the mentally retarded, maybe now it have another president

	01-12-2004 09:47									#16
	Re: Dutch kill babies, the comatose and the mentally retarded! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Worried?

	01-12-2004 10:50									#17
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The hell with what the parents think. Or the doctors.

If the person is alive, and can live then no parent, doctor, or "independent committee" should be allowed to kill it. That's murder no matter how you slice it.

The mentally ill deserve to live as much as anyone else. And parents shouldn't be allowed to kill their children in the hospital any more than at home.

	01-12-2004 10:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP If the person is alive, and can live then no parent, doctor, or "independent committee" should be allowed to kill it. That's murder no matter how you slice it.

Not if it's legal. Murder is unlawful killing, no matter how you slice it.

quote: The mentally ill deserve to live as much as anyone else. And parents shouldn't be allowed to kill their children in the hospital any more than at home.

Children born with severe physical disabilities that make even the act of breathing a torment deserve to have a peaceful, painless end to their suffering just as much as the terminally ill do.

	01-12-2004 11:00									#19
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So wait... they kill babies that are already born if they are retarded and no one objects?

	01-12-2004 11:04									#20
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****, I better cancel my ticket to the Netherlands. My eyesight is 20/50000

	01-12-2004 11:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle ****, I better cancel my ticket to the Netherlands. My eyesight is 20/50000

Yes, we're all very scared. Men in white coats are waiting at every corner, the disabled stay inside, it's horrible

	01-12-2004 11:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Nacht Yes, we're all very scared. Men in white coats are waiting at every corner, the disabled stay inside, it's horrible

Do they have butterfly nets?

	01-12-2004 11:16									#23
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So do they kill those babies after they are born or what? The retarded ones I mean, babies in coma are obviously already born.

	01-12-2004 11:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo I wasn't born retarded. It took me years to get this retarded and I am damn proud of every second.

sig material.

	01-12-2004 11:26									#25
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP The hell with what the parents think. Or the doctors. If the person is alive, and can live then no parent, doctor, or "independent committee" should be allowed to kill it. That's murder no matter how you slice it

The question is how much resources should be expended in order keep such a person alive?

Resources are not infinite, even if taxation was at 100% you still would have to make choices about who should live and who should die.

And maybe it is bad for people to die in this way - but remember that the resources that would be used to save them have to come from somewhere else, in other words "how many other, possibly more viable, people have to die due to lack of resources in order to save this person?"

	01-12-2004 11:29									#26
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Maybe if we saved resources by allowing those who want to die do so, then we wouldn't have to try saving resources by killing people who don't wish to.

	01-12-2004 11:34									#27
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quote: Groningen estimated the protocol would be applicable in about 10 cases per year in the Netherlands, a country of 16 million people.

Yes, that will surely have a radical impact on their health care costs

	01-12-2004 11:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP then we wouldn't have to try saving resources by killing people who don't wish to.

And you know this how? Mindreader of infants, are you?

	01-12-2004 11:46									#29
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So this is my 3rd attempt. Are these retarded babies born or not when they kill them?

	01-12-2004 11:47									#30
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It is a reasonably safe assumption that all people desire life. It is our nature. Yes, even infants.

Besides, I'd rather err on the side of caution, i.e. life. If the infant decides a few years later he would prefer death, that could easily be arranged. A dead infant gets no second chances.