03-12-2004 10:39									#121
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Boris, you're still trying to reason with someone like Ned?

	03-12-2004 10:42									#122
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But the biggest pedophile ring leaders ALWAYS come from the Netherlands. Now this is a fact, just google 'big pedophile ring +leader', I'm sure you'll find 1000000 hits with Joon van Rimrooker kind of names

No offense my Dutch comrades.. but it's true!

	03-12-2004 10:47									#123
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Actually, I believe the largest child porn ring busted was Austrian, wasn't it? Or was it Australian?

	03-12-2004 10:53									#124
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Not sure.. but I believe you, might very well be. The main members are always from Germany too. There's always like 300 busted at the same time, soem of them even live in the same block. I always remember hearing about Dutch ring leaders though. They confiscate like 3000 cd's, 60 HDDs, 12000 video tapes and *censored* from the basement. It's weird like that.

	03-12-2004 15:10									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Locutus, thanks. But I wonder how the US got it wrong.

They followed your example?

	03-12-2004 17:05									#126
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If you read the article Oglie posted you can come to two conclusions:

a/ Doctors make these decisions in face of opposition from the parents
b/ Doctors reject the option in face of demand from the parents when there's still options to explore

The entire Dutch system is built around b/, inlcuding the euthanasia. People aren't just allowed to go to a doctor and say i want to die, hook me up. Two independent doctors have to agree that the condition the patient suffers from is terminal and that to prolong the patients life would devalue the quality of life to such an extent that it's not worth living. And just to reiterate, the patient (or the next of kin in case of vegetabledom) has to agree, it's not like you get sent a letter in the mail asking you to come in for your termination appointment.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of people in countries all over the world already have these things done to them. In the greater sense of the word, DNR requests basically mean let me die when i am going to, and don't treat me anymore. How's that different from unhooking a ventilator from a baby with severe spina bifida? The only difference the Dutch do is that we use painkillers in a set protocol to reduce whatever pain is felt in the last minutes. I see that as humane, not as naziesque..

	15-12-2004 00:58									#127
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While I'm glad to see that the decision is very difficult to take (with pretty much everybody being able to veto), I still find it worrisome when euthanasia is not strcitly in the hands of the person being killed.

I understand that the Dutch want to be humane (and it is clearly the humane thing to do), but the words "slippery slope" can only ring a bell indeed. I think it's a threshold, when an individual is euthanasied despite not stating his wish

	15-12-2004 01:06									#128
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I wonder what would happen in this case...

quote: Local Family Has Daughter Born Without a Face By Jeannie Blaylock First Coast News JACKSONVILLE, FL -- When most parents have a baby, they spend months dreaming about what their bundle of joy will look like. Will she look like mom? Will he have dad's eyes? But for one local Navy family, the birth of their daughter didn't give them the answers to those questions. Their daughter was born without a face. When Tammy was pregnant, she knew something was wrong. At worst, they thought maybe their baby had a cleft lip. So Tammy, and her husband Tom, went to the hospital happy, until the birth. "The nurse is like, 'We got her stable, we need to rush her upstairs,'" explains Tom, as he recalls every minute of that day. "And the nurse asked, 'Do you want your wife to see her now?'" Tom says he thought to himself, "Before she gets the shock I did, let me take a picture so she's prepared." Tammy hadn't seen her new baby yet, because she almost bled to death during delivery. Tammy would be okay, meanwhile, dad went to take pictures of his new daughter. But no matter what, these new parents had a wish. "That if there was something wrong, she wouldn't be alone. We wanted to make sure she felt loved," said Tom, as he began to cry. "She squeezed my hand." Little Juliana is missing 30 - 40 percent of the bones in her face. "She has no upper jaw, no cheek bones, no eye sockets, and she's missing the corner of her ear," explains Tom. Her birth defect is called Treacher Collins Syndrome. Doctors say it's the worst case they've ever seen. So, how do you get people to see past all the defects, and find her heart? For mom, it just hurts. "I just wish people would ask questions. Don't just stare," says Tammy. "I guess the most hurtful thing came not long ago, a little girl said she was disgusting." Juliana has to eat through her stomach, and she has a trach to breathe. Already, less than two years into her life, she's had 14 surgeries. Doctors say she could need at least 30 more. Every time she goes to the hospital, doctors make a mold of her head, and then reconstruct her skull to figure out the next step. It's a life-long process that's draining for Tammy and Tom. Even still, they're thankful and full of love for their sweet child. "God never gives you more than you can handle. I figure she has a lot to show everyone... to show the world," says Tom. If you are interested in helping the Wetmore family, a savings account is set up for donations at the Vystar Credit Union in Middleburg. Donations can be made at ANY Vystar Credit Union to Juliana Wetmore at member number 2102465. Direct donations can be sent to: Juliana Wetmore 3018 Hickory Glenn Dr. Orange Park, FL 32065

quote: Tom holds his daughter, Juliana

quote: Juliana is missing 30-40% of the bones in her face.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...x?storyid=28372

	15-12-2004 01:08									#129
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I can only agree with Spiff here, except I doubt if you can label it humane

	15-12-2004 01:11									#130
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I wonder what would happen in this case...

The Dutch policy wouldn't apply in this case, since it's not terminal.

	15-12-2004 01:12									#131
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TMM:
Is this girl terminally ill? Is she only viable in medical machinery? Is her life a perpetual, excruciating pain with no pause? Do her parents think her life is an atrocious hell of which she should be relieved?

The article suggests to the contrary. Hence, if the Dutch law is to be stricly applied, she wouldn't be euthanasied.

	15-12-2004 01:15									#132
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I wonder what would happen in this case...

We'd kill her offcourse

Don't want no ugly people

	15-12-2004 01:16									#133
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quote: Juliana has to eat through her stomach, and she has a trach to breathe. Already, less than two years into her life, she's had 14 surgeries. Doctors say she could need at least 30 more.

I'd say it's pretty damn close.

	15-12-2004 01:27									#134
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Mad Monk, Have you even bothered to read?

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I wonder what would happen in this case...

quote: Originally posted by Locutus quote: ...Also, permission of the parents is mandatory... the article Nacht mentioned earlier, which is the official press release by the hospital which wrote the protocol...

	15-12-2004 02:51									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Locutus, thanks. But I wonder how the US got it wrong. I don't think it was intentional.

ARE YOU IGNORANT! OF COURSE IT WAS INTENTIONAL.

the depths you go to forgive rightwing, propoganda press, and condemn left wing propganda press is aggrivating to the point of where i want to punch you in the kidneys.

	15-12-2004 05:23									#136
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 ARE YOU IGNORANT! OF COURSE IT WAS INTENTIONAL. the depths you go to forgive rightwing, propoganda press, and condemn left wing propganda press is aggrivating to the point of where i want to punch you in the kidneys.

MRT144, ah, come on now. We have to have some balance here to the extreme leftism of most of Apolytoners.

Also, I find it hard to believe that a newspaper would deliberately state the facts wrong. What they do is spin stories by telling only half of it, usually the half that paints the opposition in a bad light.

	15-12-2004 07:16									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, I find it hard to believe that a newspaper would deliberately state the facts wrong. What they do is spin stories by telling only half of it, usually the half that paints the opposition in a bad light.

I don't. Right-wingers often lie outright. It's what they're best at.