 |
| |
|
|
Master Zen
|
 |
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
GS put a lot of thought into everything we did diplomatically. Why do you think we were so slow at it?
While GS diplomacy was always maligned by everyone, I think it actually was a strength for us. We didn't let ourselves be lead around by GoW, which is part of why GoW thinks we were so hard to deal with. We knew what the world situation boiled down to (ie. who controls Bob wins the game), and we were the only team which actively attempted to confront ND and GoW on Bob. Who you choose to go to war with, and why, is part of diplomacy.
|
I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid. At the start of the game most of us were very reserved towards GS because we felt a rather hermetical attitude on your part and had no real idea on how to approach you. We didn't know if you'd feel insulted or something if we tried to deal flexibly, for some reason we felt that deals with GS would only be stuff like "trade this for this, etc etc", in short, like the AI conducts diplomacy. With other teams, like Roleplay and Lux, diplomacy - though at times hardly cordial - was much more fluid, dynamic and alternative. ND of course was also quite rigid at first, but part of that is attributable to the language barrier as well as the fact that no-one really knew them, and they didn't know us.
quote:
Vox's diplomacy always seems to be highly regarded. What did Vox do diplomatically? They did what the world in general wanted them to do, and without getting much support in return. It's easy to get along with everyone if you let them get their way. Certainly Vox was in a tough position, but they had other bridges to try, and the one they burned was perhaps the one with the most potential.
|
Actually Vox is most regarded for their humor which caused the other teams to side with them during the game. They had one big shot at greatness, invading Bob, and they were bluffed by the Bobians. Of course, most of us actually thought they were going to defeat GS with such a sheer force of immortals. 
quote:
If you say "GS should have allied with Vox", in the same breath you are saying "Vox should have allied with GS". Over and over again, GS is maligned for it's diplomacy, but no other team is mentioned for it's part in that diplomacy. It's a double standard.
|
Yep, both could have allied with the other. My coments were merely regarding what perhaps I would have tried to do in GS's shoes - had Vox not invaded of course which sent all plans of alliance to the gutter.
quote:
GoW's diplomacy with GS was not very good either. GoW succeeded in making themselves more hated than RP (by a good margin) by GS. The bobian war could have gone much more easily for GoW and ND if they had been more friendly to GS. Instead of facing GS and RP, GS probably would have hit RP too, and then GoW and ND would have just faced GS, GS already having done most of the work against RP.
In my view, GS made one major mistake diplomatically, and GoW had one major triumph diplomatically concerning GS. We signed the NAP with GoW, meaning we couldn't proactively hit GoW or ND, but were forced to try to protect RP's land as our enterance into the war. While GS' tendancy to be hard to deal with is maligned, it was a case of us being too easy to deal with that cost us dearly. If we had been able to invade GoW or ND as our enterance into the Bobian war, this game probably would have been a lot different. |
Well, you could have invaded us anyway. Kept Spain loosely defended and channelled your forces for an invasion of GoW the moment we took your first Spanish city. I'd say it was much more a military failure than a diplomatic one. And you are right, it would have been a lot different: it would have pretty much been over since we had nothing to defend against. By the time you guys did invade it was too late, we outnumbered you both in the north and in the south.
-MZ
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Master Zen
|
|
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ZargonX
The problem was, immediately after the Bobian war, everyone stopped talking to us except Vox That was when we basically knew that GoW/GS would be gunning for us sometime soon (we actually expected the invasion much earlier than it happened). ND at that point also went from friendly to the point of threatening us as soon as the war started (which we know why, now ).
|
Heh, I have no idea about that. Contrary to popular belief we didn't share everything regarding diplomacy with ND, only stuff which was of mutual benefit. I would really like to hear more about ND's attitude during the Lego War. 
For the record, during Zayxus' term as ND leader, he was very adamant about not attacking at all. GS doesn't know this but GoW had originally plotted to take out Lego first by ourselves after the Lego War (or should I say after getting Cavs and before Lego could get RR, alas a ship-shortage prevented this). Then we started talking with ND about such possiblities but we got a nice big flat no. ND thought Lego had been very honorable to them so far in the game and they found it inconceivable to attack you to the point that they were willing to hand the game over to you by never attacking. But then relations with GS improved greatly and they started hinting at the fact that Lego was getting more and more powerful. That was the prelude of GAUL™ (Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego).
Once Darekill got to power things changed a bit, ND still did not join us in the quarrel but because of economic reasons: they were a bit backwards compared to us and could not achieve a buildup according to GoW and GS's timelines. But they did help a bit inderectly: they lent us about 16 artilleries which were crucial at Stanwix later on.
("lent" is an understatement since we never gave them back )
Still, if you read our joint-victory statement, there was a very specific clause which said that neither team was under any obligation to help the other in a war of aggression, only in a war of defense. That is also why GoW told ND plainly that if they attacked GS after the Lego War we would not participate until the time of our choosing. Likewise with RP though in the latter conflict we definitely gave them our moral support.
quote:
That was the part that bothered me the most, and still bothers me about most of these demogames; diplomacy is important for a while, than becomes almost irrelevant. You can make excellent deals, have a wonderful relationship with a team, but as soon as they decide that they have a chance to win by turning on you, they usually will. Maybe I'm just an idealist who dreams of a proper RP'd demogame where relations actually mattered, but I have yet to see it in practice... |
Yep, I agree and it is quite sad. The thing is that geo-politics sometimes ends up being more important than diplomacy. No matter how good Lego's diplomacy, it would have been quite difficult to avoid getting gangbanged eventually by virtue of your sheer size. Nevertheless I think from experience the best strategy in a demogame is to be actively scheming at all times if anything to avoid your team being the victim of such a scheme.
In the PTWDG II, Team Latin Lover paid a similar price. They thought that turtling and not bothering anyone would mean no-one would go after them. They were wrong (and I regret so much not being active with the team, things might have been very different).
-MZ
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Master Zen
|
|
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Very well said, Z. Especially the part on how great I was... 
But I think you summed it up very well. As long as there was a way to conduct good diplomacy, we did our best, and mostly succeeded (I am still quite proud of how we secured the Sistine Chapel through various deals with all other teams). Once others decided it was time to cut us off, we could have done whatever and it would not help.
And yes, UnO, we were discussing our diplomacy quite some, often setting guidelines to stick to during diplo chats. With very few exceptions, Lego was following an official, pre-discussed strategy in diplo chats (though I'll be the first to admit that a lot of diplomacy happened sort of "in the shadows", with people chatting here and there to their mates from other teams, sometimes more, sometimes less with an official blessing of the current team executive.
|
That was no understatement, you were damn good Vond. 
I'd probably consider you the best all-around team leader during this game because you were no slacker in any of the abilities needed: diplomat, builder, war leader, schemer. Of course I'd also give kudos to DeepO, I don't think anyone else managed so much with so little. And of course there's Aggie our war leader! 
I would be honored if next time we could be on the same side of the fence for a change.
quote:
What Civ3 is really lacking is a proper ingame alliance victory, available to an alliance forged halfway through the game. Then, things would work very different (and we'd not be having most of this whole shared victory discussion in the first place - as it would be generally considered something very natural).
But MZ hinted at CIV being hopefully better in this regard, so let's hope for a brighter future...
BTW, is Poly no longer choking on threads with slightly more than 500 posts...? |
Rest assured, the word is that cooperative victories will be allowed in Civ4 as a new type of victory. This will be great for PBEMs and MP games though I'm not sure if they will be overly invoked in a demogame since the fact is most people want to win by themselves. I guess it would depend on the demogame in question if two teams would find that they can't win alone.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
notyoueither
|
 |
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid. At the start of the game most of us were very reserved towards GS because we felt a rather hermetical attitude on your part and had no real idea on how to approach you. We didn't know if you'd feel insulted or something if we tried to deal flexibly, for some reason we felt that deals with GS would only be stuff like "trade this for this, etc etc", in short, like the AI conducts diplomacy. With other teams, like Roleplay and Lux, diplomacy - though at times hardly cordial - was much more fluid, dynamic and alternative. ND of course was also quite rigid at first, but part of that is attributable to the language barrier as well as the fact that no-one really knew them, and they didn't know us. |
That's interesting, especially when considering that GS considered joining the gang bang of RP, but found it distasteful to do that to other people. We were almost relieved when ND took the hard line about ports. It eliminated the rational course of action, and made the emotional one more obvious.
And then we got sucked into emotion, and neglected DeepO's plan. We funneled more and more into Spain, and completely neglected the idea of destroying GoW while the mice were away.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Hot_Enamel
|
 |
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
That's interesting, especially when considering that GS considered joining the gang bang of RP, but found it distasteful to do that to other people. We were almost relieved when ND took the hard line about ports. It eliminated the rational course of action, and made the emotional one more obvious.
And then we got sucked into emotion, and neglected DeepO's plan. We funneled more and more into Spain, and completely neglected the idea of destroying GoW while the mice were away. |
An invasion into GoW would of killed us.
We couldnt get our GA/production going.
And our entire plan hinged on getting the NAP from GS, so that we didnt have to protect our shores.
As soon as GS broke the NAP  , we let Lego know, that GS would make mince meat out of us if they attacked us directly. Which started the ball rolling with Lego getting their knights into our territory.
Which in the end... were not needed, as we had you outnumbered.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Aeson
|
 |
orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
I don't think it was maligned, but rather thought of as too rigid. |
Um... that itself could be termed maligning GS diplomacy.
I've read through the entire PTWDG archive since the declaration of the shared alliance of ND and GoW. The topic of how bad GS diplomacy is was perhaps the most consistant one brought up throughout the archives. (Or at least tied with Lux's military exploits...)
Last edited by Aeson on 08-06-2005 at 10:26
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Hot_Enamel
|
|
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
GS was only holding those cities for RP. Seriously. The best-case scenario in our eyes would have been RP keeping everything they had before the war, or almost all of it at least, and taking about half of ND's land. That's what we decided to offer to RP if the war went well. GS figured that if we could do our job, keeping RP alive and thriving on Bob, that would mean we'd have a chunk of ND and all of GoW to call our own, and an ally strong enough so that GS+RP would have the advantage over Lego+Vox.
You see, GS wanted an ally. That's what we got from RP, and what was blatantly obvious we couldn't get from ND or GoW after that chat. The cities RP gave us were more a liability for us than helpful. They were necessary to be in our hands sometimes for the good of the alliance. It wasn't our foothold on Bob though... that would have been elsewhere if things worked out. |
And within the GoW forum, we wanted to ally with GS. But against Lego later... not RP now. We just couldnt come out and say that, because we didnt want Lego finding out.
GS would of had first choice of Legoland. GoW would of been pretty negotiable on that. We feared a GS invasion in our North more than anything.
But GS insisted on having Bob territory, and we couldnt allow that.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
 |
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm baffled by why Lego thought a two team Bob and an antagonised GS was less of a threat than a three team Bob with one or both of the fast mover allies seriously hampered by war damage. |
Well... it's such a long time since all that happened... but it was quite simple, IIRC. You were victims of your own victory over Vox. And of your economic brilliance, perhaps.
The reasoning was quite simple (at least for me). If GS was able to smash Vox so easily (everybody knew how many immortals Vox had, as almost everybody was to some extent participating in their war effort) and grow so mighty with what little land you had for starters - what would happen once you'd gain more land on Bob? How would another team (Lego) be able to stop you without directly attacking over the sea?
We're builders, as in: non-agressive team. Our units did not fight until the Lego War. We never attacked anyone else first. We weren't looking for a fight, rather to keep the balance of power - even if with only two Bobian and two non-Bobian major civs left.
When things started moving fast during the Bobian War, we saw two possibilities for us. First, we could side with RP (and GS), which would inevitably result in the defeat of GoW and ND (that's how we saw it and that's how it would most probably be) and GS gaining a foothold large enough to allow finishing the Bobians by a blitzkrieg off at a later time so fast that we'd really be unable to do anything. Rather than having to help GoW & ND at a later time against a lightning-fast invasion from GS bases on Bob, we decided to help them right away and prevent GS from getting any bases on Bob.
If it was a good decision or not, nobody can tell now, as we don't know what would happen if we went the other way. Perhaps the game would end with a shared victory of GS & Lego... ...perhaps the game would have been over a year earlier, with GS controlling the whole of Stormia and Bob, Lego being perhaps the only other survivor, but ultimately unable to win because of being half the size of GS. Perhaps something different. We will never find out...
And one last note... as surprising as it may sound, the idea of joining the Bobian War actively on one of the warring sides didn't come from my head. It was during Zargon's term and it was him mobilizing the team. I grabbed the idea and supported it fully, but contrary to what some may believe, it was no personal vendetta of mine...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Donegeal
|
 |
Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer. Founder of the Glory of War, Champions of Apolyton!
Jul 2002
time: 05:18
|
|
Great disscussion guys!
Voxian Invasion of Bob. Whoa! You had us screwed! Something like 12 Immortals and 2 settlers. I think we'd have put up a fight, and I think that eventually we'd have started to push you back, but beforewe'd have pushed all the way, the Brotherhood of BoB would have crumbled and somebody would have turned.
Estonia War: I knew nothing of the altered screenshots. However, I am wondering how much you guys believed them, or if that played a part at all in your strategy for that conflict.
Bobian War: I remember the first time I saw GS knights on Bob. I only said one word (and I said it over and over and over and etc..), "F*CK!". At the time, all teams involved had gods playing the turns and I seriously don't think that either side made any strategical errors. It was the most well played war I have ever seen. For me, I think that the only reason GoW/ND won was not because of fighting or planing, but because we turned or single greatest weakness into an impossibly unbelievable advantage: GoW did not have iron. We needed iron for our Riders. So we could only build Horsemen. Then we built Leo's and got iron from ND (in deals that we made and cancelled numerous times). Bingo! Instant 3 move knights at half the cost!
Nuke War: I'm not excatly sure when, but shortly after the Bobian War I proposed the the first strike Nuclear option in the GoW forum. However, at the time it was a first strike at where ever Uranium showed up, capitals and Forbidden Palaces (followed by core city strikes in subsequent attacks). I didn't contribute much to the Nuke War, but I just wanted to give myself props for being the first to propose it in the GoW forum.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
ZargonX
|
 |
Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:18
|
|
quote:
And one last note... as surprising as it may sound, the idea of joining the Bobian War actively on one of the warring sides didn't come from my head. It was during Zargon's term and it was him mobilizing the team. I grabbed the idea and supported it fully, but contrary to what some may believe, it was no personal vendetta of mine... |
Heh, that is true. Though, it was no personal vendetta for me, either. Basically, as Vondrack said, I feared the idea of GS gaining a foothold on Bob. They had demonstrated that they could take a little bit a long way, and the idea of them seizing any portion of the Bobian continent would only mean bad news for Lego in the long run. In addition, at that point, we had excellent relations with GoW and pretty terrible relations with RP due to (apparently) some diessention within their own ranks.
Those factors combined, plus a desire to show that, yes, we were builders, but that didn't mean we couldn't play a part on the world stage, led me to encourage our course of action. Was it the right one? Who knows... the possible outcomes are so varied it's impossible to say.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:18.
Apolyton Time is 00:18. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
08-06-2005 08:09
It was an insult, to be honest.
|