02-12-2004 00:39									#61
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nostro: that's true. the most sold cars in most of Europe are French, German or American (Ford & GM's Opel/Vauxhall). Though there usually are a good number of Japanese cars around too. Their problem is, that they are percieved as "dinky" and less sophisticated. I mean, the new Mazda 6 is a great car, able to compete with the BMWs and Mercs in the same class, but they just don't have the same reputation and are therefor less desirable. Ditto with the Honda NSX supercar. "Great car, but too bad it's a Honda."

	02-12-2004 00:40									#62
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Wow, so you're telling me the average Japanese car has 0.5 fewer problems per 1000 cars then an American car? Thatis such a HUGE difference.

	02-12-2004 00:42									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Only when demand is much higher than the supply, which would also have something to say about why people want older Japanese cars...

In general Toyota and Honda are better at forcasting demand then the Domestics. They like to keep production just slightly lower then demand so that they don't have to put incentives on cars and to keep resale values high.

	02-12-2004 00:43									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Wow, so you're telling me the average Japanese car has 0.5 fewer problems per 1000 cars then an American car? Thatis such a HUGE difference.

err...what?

That's a percentrank, oerdin...

1.0 is the absolute maximum, and represents 100%...

0.5 is 50%.

	02-12-2004 00:43									#65
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well, its in percents, so its got 50% fewer problems

	02-12-2004 00:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia well, its in percents, so its got 50% fewer problems

Well it really means 50% as reliable. Or half as reliable.

And that's with generous rounding...

GM is at 29%, Toyota is at 90%.

	02-12-2004 00:55									#67
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what about euro cars?

	02-12-2004 00:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher err...what? That's a percentrank, oerdin... 1.0 is the absolute maximum, and represents 100%... 0.5 is 50%.

I don't know anything about that company but it strikes me as odd that all problems are considered equal. For instance Nissan has a well known problem with it's pre-1999 V6s where extended high rpm usage results in barrings being starved for oil. The result is complete engine failure.

It seems that would be counted as one problem just the same as having an air vent get jammed.

Also I don't know anything about Percent track so I can't comment on how accurate their numbers are or if their methodology is sound. I do trust JD Powers and Consumer Reports and they both say the quality is with in a few percentage points amoung the major brands. So either both of those raters are off or your rater is off.

	02-12-2004 00:58									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia what about euro cars?

Not so good.

BMW: 68%
VW: 27%
Volvo: 35%
Mercedes-Benz: 52%
Audi: 36%

	02-12-2004 01:00									#70
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Also you have to look at models and not just companies. Different models with in a given company have big differences in quality. Both J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports takes this into account and rates each model seporately.

	02-12-2004 01:00									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't know anything about that company but it strikes me as odd that all problems are considered equal. For instance Nissan has a well known problem with it's pre-1999 V6s where extended high rpm usage results in barrings being starved for oil. The result is complete engine failure. It seems that would be counted as one problem just the same as having an air vent get jammed. Also I don't know anything about Percent track so I can't comment on how accurate their numbers are or if their methodology is sound. I do trust JD Powers and Consumer Reports and they both say the quality is with in a few percentage points amoung the major brands. So either both of those raters are off or your rater is off.

Well that's odd, because the source I listed uses Consumer Reports as one of the sources.

Read the methadology page: http://www.autooninfo.net/AutoonInfo/Methodology.htm

	02-12-2004 01:01									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Also you have to look at models and not just companies. Different models with in a given company have big differences in quality. Both J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports takes this into account and rates each model seporately.

Erm...so does this site.

Please look at it, this is several times in a row you've said something outrageously silly.

	02-12-2004 01:02									#73
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How come they rate VW and Audi seporately but give one rate for all of GM?

	02-12-2004 01:02									#74
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Get a convertable, They may cost more but they are real pleasure to drive. In my opinion well worth it.

Of course I'm slightly insane when it comes to driving with the top down, as long as it's 50 F + and not actually raining the top is down. I love freezing my friends It makes driving to work and back not only tolerable but fun. Oh and get a car with turbo.

	02-12-2004 01:02									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin How come they rate VW and Audi seporately but give one rate for all of GM?

They rate VW as a whole as well.

They also rate Chevy seperately: 32%.

Please, look at the site. Your attempts to debunk it keep backfiring.

	02-12-2004 01:03									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Please look at it, this is several times in a row you've said something outrageously silly.

Not.

	02-12-2004 01:04									#77
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Yes, Oerdin...not.

Denial is so powerful.

	02-12-2004 01:05									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Please, look at the site. Your attempts to debunk it keep backfiring.

I'm not attempting to debunk it. I simply asked you a question.

I think I will continue to trust Consumer Reports and J.D. Powers over your internet site. Neither of those has ever claimed there to be a 50% difference in quality and your site does so that leads me to believe your site is full of it.

	02-12-2004 01:37									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I think I will continue to trust Consumer Reports and J.D. Powers over your internet site. Neither of those has ever claimed there to be a 50% difference in quality and your site does so that leads me to believe your site is full of it.

This site doesn't claim that either.

Read the methadology page. It's information is taken fron Consumer Reports, BTW...

	02-12-2004 01:41									#80
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Another metric that site uses is their Reliability Index:

quote: To generate the reliability index value for a motor vehicle model, the 1996-1998 Buying Guides by the Consumers Union and the April 1998, the April 1999, the April 2000, the April 2001, the April 2002, the April 2003, and the April 2004 issues of Consumer Reports were used. In the “Reliability Records” portion of the 1996 Buying Guide appear charts for many of the motor vehicle models sold in the U.S. In each model chart, each of 16 trouble spots is rated for each of eight years, from 1987 through 1994. To compute an index value for a motor vehicle model manufactured in the years of 1987-1988, the following was done: 1. The trouble spots of “Manual Transmission,” “Clutch,” “Brakes” and “Exhaust” were eliminated. The first two were eliminated as most vehicles of any description come with automatic transmission, by far the more popular choice. The latter two were eliminated as it seemed nearly impossible to imagine that brake work today is anything other than replacement of brake linings/pads and exhaust work is simply replacement of muffler and/or exhaust pipes, something that now carries a lifetime warranty, although the author’s imagination may be somewhat limited by his rather exclusive use of Toyota motor vehicles for the past nearly 18 years. 2. If any of Consumer Reports ratings for the remaining 12 trouble spots were missing (due to insufficient data) for either of the two years, the model received no index value. Otherwise, the trouble spots in the chart that earned Consumer Reports’ lowest rating (highest frequency of reported car problems) in either of the two model years were counted and this count was multiplied by –1. Then the trouble spots in the chart that earned Consumer Reports’ second lowest rating (second highest frequency of reported car problems) in either of the two model years were counted and this count was multiplied by – ½. Then the trouble spots that earned Consumer Reports’ highest rating (lowest frequency of reported car problems) in either of the two model years were counted and this count was multiplied by +1. Then the trouble spots that earned Consumer Reports’ second highest rating (second lowest frequency of reported car problems) in either of the two model years were counted and this count was multiplied by + ½. 3. Finally, the four numbers that were obtained in 2 were added together and divided by 24. This is the model’s Reliability Index Value for the pair of manufacturing years 1987-1988. So, the index value for a model manufactured in the years of 1987-1988 may vary from +1, the highest value, to –1, the lowest value.

Reliability index values for 6.5 - 7.5 year old vehicles:

	02-12-2004 02:04									#81
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http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2003050.pdf

A nice report on long term quality by J.D. Powers & Associates. It says that on average American carmakers have higher intial and long term quality then European or Korean automakers and are just slightly behind Japanese.

Of the highest ranked models in both intial and long term quality 9 were built by Toyota, 3 by Ford, 3 by GM, 1 Honda, 1 Porche.

	02-12-2004 02:08									#82
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BTW most of Toyota's cars on the list came from Lexus not the Toyota brand itself.

	02-12-2004 02:14									#83
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I don't trust JD Powers and Associates nearly as much as I do non-profit consumer groups, which constituted the source for the study I've linked now.

Further, the JD Powers and Associates "study" involves 3-year old cars.

American reliability problems are usually after 5 years or so, after the warranties expire.

It's interesting how JD Powers changed their time period from 5 years to 3, and at the same time remark how American cars improved.

Perhaps they're improving because of the adjusted timespan.

	02-12-2004 02:22									#84
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The long term Dependability study says these are the average number of problems experienced per 100 cars by name plate:

Lexus 163
Infiniti 174
Buick 179
Porche 193
Acura 196
Toyota 201
Cadillac 209
Linlcon 212
Honda 218
Mercury 240
Jaguar 247
Saab 255
BMW 262
Subaru 266
Nissan 267
GMC 269
Chevrolet 272
Saturn 273
Industry Average 273
Oldsmobile 283
Mazda 288
Pontiac 293
Chrysler 295
Ford 295
Plymouth 302
Dodge 312
Audi 318
Mercedes-Benz 318
Jeep 321
Volvo 330
Misubishi 339
Hyundai 342
Isuzu 368
VW 391
Suzuki 401
Daewoo 421
Land Rover 441
Kia 509

	02-12-2004 02:23									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Asher American reliability problems are usually after 5 years or so, after the warranties expire.

So say you.

	02-12-2004 02:23									#86
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As I said, I don't consider 3 years long term.

Long term is after the warranty is expired, IMO.

My family always keeps cars at least 10 years before replacing them, so a study talking about car reliability still under warranty is kinda pointless.

What most people want to know is how much their car is going to cost them in repairs after the warranty stops covering it, which is what the Consumer Reports and the metastudy I've quoted shows us.

The JD Powers & Associates seems to show initial quality mostly.

	02-12-2004 02:24									#87
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3 yrs is short-term.

5 is medium.

long term is more like 10 yrs, IMO.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 02:25									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So say you.

And Consumer Reports and the Consumers Union.

	02-12-2004 02:28									#89
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There is a big problem with judging quality out that far as much of the problems that arise are due to owner misuse or lack of proper maintance. How do you reliably tell real design and manufacturing problems from problems caused by neglect or misuse in a 10 year old car?

Also automanufacturing has changed alot in the last decade so those results won't necisarily reflect on cars being built today. Ten years ago Mercedes-Benz was the highest ranked car and today they're cars have below average quality.

	02-12-2004 02:34									#90
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Also your opinion on British cars seems to be old fashioned and not based upon reality as well. True, Land Rovers are crap but Jaguar is the best built mass market car made in Europe; Porche has better ratings but it only builds specialty cars in small numbers. Rolles Royce, Bentley, and Aston Martin sell in small numbers so they're not including in the study but I'd be surprised if they weren't top notch.

Rover, MG, and Vauxhaul aren't sold in the US so they aren't rated.