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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:17
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No, because I reject that presupposition that our desires are innate, and cannot be changed.
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Which has exactly what meaning for your argument?
Furthermore why would it be relevant, if it is a personal condition or a personal choice? Are you attempting to imply a right or wrong choice in the individual context?
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part of our essence is our desires, then you'd have everything across the board.
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Again the obsession with sex. Would you say the same of the desire for love? Also, wrt the the desire for sex, is it not reasonable to say that there are limits to that which remain unaffected by acceptance of homosexuality, i.e., allowing sex between men is not a slippery slope to allowing sex between adults and children, for example?
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What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.
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Ergo?
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If something is accidental, that means it can change, without changing the nature of the object.
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That's ridiculous, since the only thing that would change is the properties of the objects existence (allowing thus for individual subjectivity). I take it you're an essentialist though  .
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Fundamentalists should be banned!
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I think it's time we put the "Fun" back into Fundamentalism 
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:17
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yeah, that's what happens when Kinsey conducts what is supposed to be a 'representative' sample of the male population. The figure is taken from his study, and his study only, which has been parroted countless times by other people.
Most studies have confirmed the 2% number. |
Actually, it's what happens when people misread The Kinsey Report. Ten percent is the proportion of men who have engaged in any homosexual activity. That includes people who are experimenting, people in stress situations like prison, etc.
The percentage Kinsey discovered that is exclusively homosexual was 4% - 5% of the population, and that number has been consistently confirmed by various studies. It does not include bisexuals, the transgendered, etc., however, so don't go thinking that 95% of the population is heterosexual.
Human sexuality is still a wonderful and complex and mysterious thing, and far more diverse than the religionistas would have it.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 03-12-2004 at 18:36
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:17
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Am I the only one who read the article, agreed with most of it, but came away with an utterly different conclusion than what the author actually intended? It seems to me that most of his points are valid and that should be a good thing. A quick summary:
- Homosexuals have made great strides in being accepted in society
- Today you can find homosexuals in all the same jobs straight people occupy
- A civil union bill has a good chance of passing in NZ parliament
- This may open the doors for full-blown gay marriage
I guess you have to be like Ben and hate all of this to your core to have a problem with it.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:17
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No, because I reject that presupposition that our desires are innate, and cannot be changed.
That's not implied by the statement. Suppose one said, for all human beings, part of our essence is our desires, then you'd have everything across the board. |
You always find new ways to express your ignorance about sexuality and sex orientation. 
To say that sexual orientation is innate and cannot be changed, does NOT follow then, that this is the central, sole part of our identification.
Identification is multi-faceted: religion, gender, race, ethnicity, political affiliation/ideology, sex orientation, occupation/job, education level, nationality, primary spoken language, family background, health condition, and so on.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:17
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Which has exactly what meaning for your argument?
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That if a person desires to change, they can.
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Furthermore why would it be relevant, if it is a personal condition or a personal choice? Are you attempting to imply a right or wrong choice in the individual context?
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At this point? All I'm saying is that if a person is not happy with this aspect of their life they can change this. Whether one ought to change this part is an entirely different question.
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Again the obsession with sex. Would you say the same of the desire for love? Also, wrt the the desire for sex, is it not reasonable to say that there are limits to that which remain unaffected by acceptance of homosexuality, i.e., allowing sex between men is not a slippery slope to allowing sex between adults and children, for example?
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Not really an obsession per se, but the topic of this thread. It can apply to other inclinations as well.
Would I say the same for love? That's a good question. I do believe that the desire for love, in the sense of agape is part of our essence.
As for children, there are those who argue that there is nothing wrong with their behaviour, that they are helping, rather than hurting these children, hence they ought to be allowed to do what they will with them, without consent.
This is really the heart of the conversation I had with Jon. What is the problem here? Is it so much with the gay people, or with our sexuality in general. Really, the problem is with everything, and not just the one thing. What is the proper expression of our sexuality? What are the consequences for those who deviate from this path?
This is why I argue that to approve the one, will lead to the question, as to why should there be any restrictions on sexuality at all?
It is not part of their nature.
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That's ridiculous, since the only thing that would change is the properties of the objects existence (allowing thus for individual subjectivity). I take it you're an essentialist though.
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Properties. They are not the essence in itself. Our properties change alongside our proportions though our essence does not.
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03-12-2004 16:23
).
Also any studies will be flawed. A society where Christianity is still endemic is likely to cause people who are gay to deny it on paper or have not realised it themselves.
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