03-12-2004 13:33									#1
	The fun of frustrated homophobes. Remove this text

I thought this was hilarious. New Zealand is about to legalize homosexual civil unions, and the fundies are foaming at the mouth.

I thought that some gay posters might get a kick out of his impotent rage.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm...bjectID=9001239

quote: Garth George: Homosexual lobby poised to confront the last bastion 02.12.04   Irrespective of whether the Civil Union Bill passes its second reading today the homosexual lobby's steamroller will not be stopped. The public relations campaign aimed at the acceptance of homosexuals and the homosexual lifestyle as "normal" has been going on for nearly 40 years and it has to be said that it has been the most outstandingly successful example of spin-doctoring in the history of mankind. Ever since the decriminalisation of homosexual activity the PR machine has been building momentum and its achievements have been extraordinary. That is not surprising. Homosexuals define their very being by their sexuality. Homosexual is who and what they are, first, last and always, be they male or female. And when you are fighting for the acceptance and advancement of your very self, you put everything you have into it - body, mind, soul and substance. Thus, within a few decades of coming out of the closet, homosexuals are to be found in all areas of life. They are in positions of influence in all the mainline churches, all the professions, in the media, the justice system and law enforcement, healthcare, education, Government agencies (human rights, censorship, Aids), and state bureaucracies in general. And in comparatively recent years homosexuals have been elected to the legislatures, not just of New Zealand but of countries all over the world. Yet all the best and most objective evidence suggests that they compose a maximum of 2 per cent, and probably less, of the population, in this country at least. It is an astounding story of success for what was a seriously disadvantaged minority group and just goes to show what can be achieved by single-minded effort, sacrifice and perseverance. The only other movement which has had similar success is the Maori compensation campaign and, interestingly, there are parallels between the two: both have unashamedly used the "poor us, we're victims" strategy; and both have developed the instinctive and immediate defence against criticism of plastering opponents with non-politically-correct labels. If you question the "normality" of homosexuality, you are automatically a homophobe; if you argue against Maori "rights", you are a racist. Which helps to explain why public polling has invariably suggested that a majority of ordinary New Zealanders agree with the Civil Union Bill. Most people seem to be terrified of being thought to lack "tolerance" or "acceptance" or any number of other nonsensical buzzwords (including homophobe and racist) that infect our society, the real meanings of which have long been lost in the miasma of an anything-goes mindset. As I have said before, I am prepared to bet a year's pay that if the Civil Union Bill and its much more sinister sister, the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill, were put to secret ballot by referendum, they would be soundly defeated. As were moves to legalise gay marriage in all 11 of the United States which held referendums on the question at the time of the presidential election. But make no mistake. With years of preparation and experience behind them the homosexual lobby here is determined to storm the last - and most important - bastion of them all. That is the one that will give them the same legal rights as heterosexuals to enter into that most sacred of institutions, marriage, upon which the very foundations of human civilisation are and always have been built. Which makes today's second reading debate on the Civil Union Bill one of the most crucial ever to take place in our Parliament, no matter how much homosexuals and their sympathisers would like to downplay it. For if the Civil Union Bill is passed, you can be sure that this Government will pluck up the courage to bring the politically delayed Relationships Bill back to the House - even, perhaps, before next year's election. And that's the one they really want, the one that will finally give homosexuals the one thing they have so far not been able to achieve and which they desire above all - equality with everybody else in a relationship which since time immemorial has been the exclusive preserve of heterosexual men and women. Today's debate will be fascinating. It appears that some who were known to favour the legislation are now wavering and, by unnecessarily taking urgency (after all, it doesn't matter whether the bill gets its second reading today or in 2010) the Government has given them good reason to change their minds. And isn't it exciting that our Muslim MP, Ashraf Choudhary, has finally discovered he has a conscience after all and will cast a vote, albeit along party lines. I predict that if this seminal bill passes, it will do so on the slimmest of majorities - just like all the other social engineering and constitutional legislation this Government has foisted upon an unwilling public. So I will simply sit back and take comfort once again in those wonderful and eternal words uttered by our Lord Jesus Christ just minutes before he died hanging on the Cross: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

What will the degenerate homosexual conspiracy cook up next? Forced gay sex?

	03-12-2004 13:34									#2
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And what makes him think that the "homosexual lobby" (Village People fans aside) would deign to let themselves be seen on a steamroller?

quote: They are in positions of influence in all the mainline churches, all the professions, in the media, the justice system and law enforcement, healthcare, education, Government agencies (human rights, censorship, Aids), and state bureaucracies in general.

They could be fixing your car, packing your groceries or even delivering your mail!!!!! Aaaarrgrrrgggghhhh!! Help!!!

Oh and:

quote: I predict that if this seminal bill passes,

	03-12-2004 13:38									#3
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I'll be damned if I stand by and do nothing while these homosexuals get the same rights afforded me and my goat!

	03-12-2004 13:39									#4
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Isn't it customary to allow for at least one post in response before you post again. It keeps you from looking like your too eager for someone to post in your thread. Oh and quoting something from your own post without someone else posting in between is a bit creepy to

	03-12-2004 13:42									#5
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quote: Homosexuals define their very being by their sexuality.

For all your ridicule, he makes some good points Aggie.

	03-12-2004 13:42									#6
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quote: Isn't it customary to allow for at least one post in response before you post again. It keeps you from looking like your too eager for someone to post in your thread. Oh and quoting something from your own post without someone else posting in between is a bit creepy to

I wanted to separate the original piece from the substance of my mockery.

	03-12-2004 13:44									#7
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quote: For all your ridicule, he makes some good points Aggie.

That is not a good point. Do you get up every day and believe that the absolute essence of Ben is heterosexuality?

The metaphysics of such a view is ridiculous to say the least. It isn't as if homosexuals are a separate, non-human species, which is what this line of thought implies.

	03-12-2004 13:48									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Isn't it customary to allow for at least one post in response before you post again. It keeps you from looking like your too eager for someone to post in your thread. Oh and quoting something from your own post without someone else posting in between is a bit creepy to I wanted to separate the original piece from the substance of my mockery.

Ok, Carry on with your gay thread

	03-12-2004 13:52									#9
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quote: That is not a good point. Do you get up every day and believe that the absolute essence of Ben is heterosexuality?

No, because I reject that presupposition that our desires are innate, and cannot be changed.

quote: The metaphysics of such a view is ridiculous to say the least. It isn't as if homosexuals are a separate, non-human species, which is what this line of thought implies.

That's not implied by the statement. Suppose one said, for all human beings, part of our essence is our desires, then you'd have everything across the board.

	03-12-2004 13:54									#10
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Is it correct to assume that gay men in New Zealand only go after the male sheep?

	03-12-2004 13:55									#11
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quote: No, because I reject that presupposition that our desires are innate, and cannot be changed.

Well the facts seem to counter your assertion.

quote: That's not implied by the statement. Suppose one said, for all human beings, part of our essence is our desires, then you'd have everything across the board.

That's a concomitant accident, not an essence.

	03-12-2004 13:57									#12
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quote: Is it correct to assume that gay men in New Zealand only go after the male sheep?

You must be confusing us with those degenerates from across the Tasman.

	03-12-2004 14:07									#13
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quote: Well the facts seem to counter your assertion.

What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.

quote: That's a concomitant accident, not an essence.

Like hair colour?

Somehow I don't see gay people saying that their gayness is as much a part of who they are as the colour of their hair.

	03-12-2004 14:09									#14
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edited out

Jon Miller

Last edited by Jon Miller on 03-12-2004 at 14:18

	03-12-2004 14:10									#15
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And if I am wrong, and you do not do this. Then I apologise, it is just my perception. (and I associate you with some other people I have heard)

Jon Miller

	03-12-2004 14:22									#16
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Ah, we are all sinners.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 03-12-2004 at 14:39

	03-12-2004 14:25									#17
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quote: And if I am wrong, and you do not do this. Then I apologise, it is just my perception. (and I associate you with some other people I have heard)

No worries mate.

Please, if you think I have said something wrong, speak up!

I appreciate the scrutiny.

	03-12-2004 14:30									#18
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I had changed it to PM, since that would be more appropriate.

But your PM box is full.

I agree with you that it is important to say what you beleive. I guess I read about every thread, and it seems you say so often. But maybe that is the nature of apolyton.

While it is the job of my Christian brother, when he is so impressed, to confront me about my sin, how I deal with my sin (and even if I am impressed with it) is between me and God (this is of course dealing just with the sin, not with the temporal aspects that might relate to it).

Jon Miller
(sorry about the inappropriateness, I just generally don't think of it, I will edit in my post if you will)

	03-12-2004 14:33									#19
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If you prefer in private, try it now.

	03-12-2004 14:35									#20
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For example, I beleive it is a sin to work on the Sabbath. But I never mention it once to any none SDA (or practicing Jew) that I meet.

Why? Because first they must be Christian (or Jewish). Than they must be impressed by God to keep the 4th commandment (which I will debate with other Christians). Finally I will point it out (if I am so impressed), but it still will be between them and God.

Jon Miller

	03-12-2004 14:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.

You've shown no sign of doing so.

	03-12-2004 14:48									#22
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quote: What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.

I doubt I could make myself gay in the sense that I could experience sexual desire for men. I also doubt that I could stop feeling such desires for hot women.

The evidence suggests that gay people can no more help being gay, than straight people can help being straight.

But none of that means that gay people identify their sexuality as their most important and essential feature. It is certain that some do, but I imagine they are not much more numerous than straights who do so.

How many black people think that their colour is what matters most? How many whites?

George is making a fatuous generalization provoked by his deep hatred of homosexuals. If you replaced every occurrence of the word "homosexual" with the word "Jew" in that article it would sound just like...

...and that is not a coincidence.

	03-12-2004 14:48									#23
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quote: You've shown no sign of doing so.

Molly.

	03-12-2004 15:23									#24
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Red blood New Zealand farmers will want civil unions with the favorite goat next.

	03-12-2004 15:37									#25
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Leaving the tiresome and predictable debate aside, what I found interesting in it was this part:

quote: [A]ll the best and most objective evidence suggests that [homosexuals] compose a maximum of 2 per cent, and probably less, of the population.

Really? I've for as long as I can remember that the proportion of homosexuals amoungst men is around or just below 10 %. Even if there would be few or no lesbians it would still give a proportion for the total population of at leat 5 %.

But when I think about it, I don't know how, where or when I got this figure. Does anyone have any serious estimates about this?

	03-12-2004 15:44									#26
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You have to bear in mind that to someone like that www.godhatesfags.com is a more objective source than CNN.

	03-12-2004 15:57									#27
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quote: You've shown no sign of doing so.

In any of my inclinations?

That's a pretty broad scope, Molly.

	03-12-2004 15:59									#28
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quote: I thought that some gay posters might get a kick out of his impotent rage.

	03-12-2004 16:03									#29
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quote: I doubt I could make myself gay in the sense that I could experience sexual desire for men. I also doubt that I could stop feeling such desires for hot women. The evidence suggests that gay people can no more help being gay, than straight people can help being straight.

I don't doubt the desire is there. But the desire is not the same as who they are. You agree with me here. If something is accidental, that means it can change, without changing the nature of the object.

Consider your own body. Does not your hair change colour as you age? Yet, does this change in your accidents alter your essence?

quote: But none of that means that gay people identify their sexuality as their most important and essential feature. It is certain that some do, but I imagine they are not much more numerous than straights who do so.

Not quite. That is not what that fellow is saying. He is saying that they consider their desires to be part of their essence. He says nothing about a heirarchy.

quote: How many black people think that their colour is what matters most? How many whites?

Very good comparison. Who was it that considered the black skin to be part of the essence? Was it not the racists, who said such skin affected their status. This is why this reasoning does not work. It is only by rejecting the fact that the accidents are not part of the essence, can one justify treating blacks as persons, just like one would treat gay people as persons.

quote: George is making a fatuous generalization provoked by his deep hatred of homosexuals. If you replaced every occurrence of the word "homosexual" with the word "Jew" in that article it would sound just like...

I don't consider that an overgeneralisation. I consider that to be a perceptive comment.

	03-12-2004 16:07									#30
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quote: Really? I've for as long as I can remember that the proportion of homosexuals amoungst men is around or just below 10 %. Even if there would be few or no lesbians it would still give a proportion for the total population of at leat 5 %.

Yeah, that's what happens when Kinsey conducts what is supposed to be a 'representative' sample of the male population. The figure is taken from his study, and his study only, which has been parroted countless times by other people.

Most studies have confirmed the 2% number.