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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:17
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quote:
Actually, it's what happens when people misread The Kinsey Report. Ten percent is the proportion of men who have engaged in any homosexual activity. That includes people who are experimenting, people in stress situations like prison, etc.
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True, but that is the percentage I have heard many, many times from the proponents of Kinsey's reports. So the people who are misreading his report, are not just the ones opposed to his findings.
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The percentage Kinsey discovered that is exclusively homosexual was 4% - 5% of the population, and that number has been consistently confirmed by various studies. It does not include bisexuals, the transgendered, etc., however, so don't go thinking that 95% of the population is heterosexual.
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Which is why I must also stress that Kinsey's sample of the population is far from representative. He focuses on the people who will respond to his surveys, which are oversampling those with a criminal record, among others.
In fact, when he looks at the women, he counts any woman who is with a partner more than a year, as married, and uses them as a sample of 'married' people.
Is it diverse? Sure. But not as diverse, as Kinsey claims.
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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:17
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* DRoseDARs reads through some of BK's responses
Ok, I'm usually a very private person on this subject in RL, and hate being vulgar when talking seriously, but that's enough Ben. My being gay IS NOT A F*CKING CHOICE. Looking at a beautiful woman, I'm like the old guy in one Family Guy episode who kept punching himself in the crotch yelling "Wake up, damn it!" minus the punching-myself-in-the-crotch part. I see a beautiful woman, nothing happens. I see a hot guy, I have to control my urges. Not difficult, given I've always been a little more mature than most of my peers in RL, but I still have urges and they involve men not women. I cannot control who I have a hardon over, just whether or not I let the erection proceed.
Please, tell me again how my involuntary erections for members of the same sex are a concious choice beyond going stiff or staying limp.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:17
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quote:
That if a person desires to change, they can.
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No no, you don't get off that easily, supposing they can change, what does that mean for your argument?
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At this point? All I'm saying is that if a person is not happy with this aspect of their life they can change this. Whether one ought to change this part is an entirely different question.
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But is it not you're implication? It seems ludicrous to go to this trouble to make a (flawed but we've covered that) point unless that entirely different question is answered accordingly. Would you care to elaborate on that question?
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This is really the heart of the conversation I had with Jon. What is the problem here? Is it so much with the gay people, or with our sexuality in general. Really, the problem is with everything, and not just the one thing. What is the proper expression of our sexuality? What are the consequences for those who deviate from this path?
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I think it's ludicrous to claim that knowledge of homosexuality, just as the dynamic of any relationship, is harmful for children. If you want a society where homosexuality is legal and tolerated as non-deconstructive and legal behaviour, and then give children no information about it, there is a contradiction there. With regards to sex, yes that should be kept away from young children, as should be heterosexual sex, which is why gay literature is not erotic gay literature. See the difference there?
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This is why I argue that to approve the one, will lead to the question, as to why should there be any restrictions on sexuality at all?
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Because there is a necessary difference between sleeping with a man or any consenting adult, and sleeping with someone who does not, or cannot consent. Hence my position is that sex between consenting adults with the ability to consent should be legal in the context of society, whereas sex between non-consenting entities is not. That leads to gay, straight and group sex for all adults regardless of gender, political, religious, or childbearing status. Choices made on top of that are of course moved into the context of subjective individual (non "universal should" choices).
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It is not part of their nature.
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It is not part of a gay persons nature to be gay?
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Properties. They are not the essence in itself. Our properties change alongside our proportions though our essence does not.
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But what do you define as essence in this context and what makes it necessarily the case that it is not a subjective and descriptive (thus emotive) statement?
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Why then is this a cogent rebuttal to the claim that these desires can change?
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Because people do not agree with your statement, and also there is an (admittedly misguidedly pragmatic) cause to deny the opposition the premise for their argument, thus attacking that argument on two fronts (premise and conclusion). I happen to take the question of change/no change as a question of necessary or sufficient subjectivity, which naturally favours the no-change position in terms of this argument.
BK, you speak of "part of you" and the essence (and really any barely-competent existentialist will have you by the balls on that one  ) but what gives you the ability to make a necessary claim over, what looks to me as your own value judgement (fact-value distinction, where the facts (premises) seem to be based upon your own position. As a result, the whole argument as you vaguely display it affirms the consequent, known as a formal fallacy. However, for the sake of debate, instead of picking pedantic holes in responses, I would ask you to coherently write your own argument with regards to this issue, including the conclusion of your "homosexuality is a choice" argument.
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04-12-2004 07:01
ACK!
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