07-12-2004 22:55									#61
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quote: The Hopi Indians did not. Many American Indian tribes did not.

small sample size, everyone knew everyone else, and all pulled together because no one were strangers, just like today's kibbutz.

	07-12-2004 22:58									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Actually incentirves work great despite your little tongue in cheek comments.

Sure they do, but I don't like the idea of paying corporations for not doing something that is harmfull to society. The whole idea is to match to costs. If the corporations create the social cost they need to pay for it. Where's your devotion to personal responsibility? You don't include corporations in that world view?

	07-12-2004 23:00									#63
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[RANT]

A major problem with the way we handle pollution in this country is that we deal with the effects decades down the road, instead of enforcing strict controls on current operations.

Result? Cleanup required. Cleanups are hideously expensive, and there are other complications. Often, the original polluting entity is gone. Insurance records (to the extent those are applicable, but that's a whole 'nother matter) are often incomplete or totally missing.

Before you even clean a contaminated site up, you have to delineate the extent of the contamination. Once you've done that (Preliminary Investigation), you do a Remedial Investigation (more in-depth) and then a Feasibility Study (ok, here are 2-3 methods we can use to clean this up, and here's what it should cost). Then you debate/haggle over which method to use. THEN, once you've dealt with all of that, you get started.

I cannot tell you how many sites I've seen where the contamination was discovered and pretty well understood 15 years ago, and they still haven't started cleanup!

It's bassackwards, damnit! Controls + incentives. Go after pollution at its source (aggressively!), not after the fact.[/Rant]

-Arrian

	07-12-2004 23:00									#64
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Here in California the cotton growers are actually subsidized to polute. Now that's just wrong, especially with the bad air we have here.

	07-12-2004 23:04									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia small sample size, everyone knew everyone else, and all pulled together because no one were strangers, just like today's kibbutz.

There were tens of millions of Indians. Obviously, I don't say all Indians behaved this way, since the Aztecs are an obvious and major exception.

Also, given that most feudal states were organized around sustainability, and not short-term greed (despite the ambitions of various individuals), humans can not be called naturally short-sighted and greedy. We are whatever it is advanatageous to be.

	07-12-2004 23:13									#66
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quote: There were tens of millions of Indians. Obviously, I don't say all Indians behaved this way, since the Aztecs are an obvious and major exception.

i was talking about your Hopi.

	07-12-2004 23:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i was talking about your Hopi.

And as I wrote in the immediately following setnence, MANY Indians did not act in greedy and short-sighted ways. You even quoted it.

	07-12-2004 23:32									#68
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quote: And as I wrote in the immediately following setnence, MANY Indians did not act in greedy and short-sighted ways. You even quoted it.

and you will see that many of your many were organized into small tribes were everyone knew everyone. you cannt compare a society like that to todays were over 95% of the people you see daily are strangers.

	07-12-2004 23:40									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia and you will see that many of your many were organized into small tribes were everyone knew everyone.

They also had to account for neighboring bands, composed of people whom they did not know. You are also ignoring the feudal social structure, which accounts for a significant part of human history. The point is, people are created by their society. A short-sighted, greedy society will create short-sighted, greedy people. That's not how we are naturally.

	07-12-2004 23:48									#70
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im not talking about feudal social structure. im talking about the hopi. the neighboring bands as you all them, were like seperate nations for us today, therefore i dont see how it affects their society where everyone knew everyone else, as opposed to todays.

	07-12-2004 23:53									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia im not talking about feudal social structure. im talking about the hopi. the neighboring bands as you all them, were like seperate nations for us today, therefore i dont see how it affects their society where everyone knew everyone else, as opposed to todays.

Not everyone in Hopi society knew everyone else. Not everyone in societies of traveling bands knew everyone else. Not all North American Indians lived in traveling bands. The Chippewa were a huge nation who always left half their rice fall back into the water as a tribute to the rice, which also, they knew, ensured that there would be more rice next year.

And, as I have repeated pointed out, today's society is manufactured. We don't know each other because we don't bother to get to know each other. We are overworked, so we don't have time to build community. We are distracted by consumerism. Hell, families barely know each other, let alone neighbors, or the guy who lives on another block. This isn't just because we have a large society. Europeans have large societies too, and they aren't as short-sighted and greedy as Americans. We are this way because we have been taught to be this way because it is more profitable to be this way.

Since I can point to significant parts of human history and society where people have not been short-sighted and greedy, it is not a universal charaterisitic of humanity, and therefore it is not part of human nature.

Game, set, match.

	08-12-2004 00:14									#72
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quote: We are distracted by consumerism. Hell, families barely know each other, let alone neighbors, or the guy who lives on another block. This isn't just because we have a large society. Europeans have large societies too, and they aren't as short-sighted and greedy as Americans.

Oh, please.

As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

Your comments re: "harmonious with nature" Indian societies don't carry much weight with me, primarily because those societies ultimately failed, but also because I honestly don't think we know enough about them (not much history available for review) to state with certainty that they were really any less short-sighted than we. Greed I'll grant you.

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 00:35									#73
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I am still not getting that sillyass " it's human nature " argument. Not everything that is "human nature", or that is known as such is necessarily good, acceptable, or inconquerable. As to our society, our biggest problem is that we barely have one, on a personal level.

	08-12-2004 00:57									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, please. As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

Yes and no. There have always been short-signted greedy people. Everyone has not always been short-sighted and greedy.

quote: Your comments re: "harmonious with nature" Indian societies don't carry much weight with me, primarily because those societies ultimately failed,

They ultimately failed when they were invaded by another culture. "Harmonious waht nature" is not what I'm getting at. They obviously impacted nature greatly. The point was they planned for the future.

	08-12-2004 01:12									#75
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I'll tell you this...

If I had more free time, I would most likely spend it on the things I like to do - and most of those things are anti-social (reading, playing computer games) or apply only to small groupings of friends*.

Does this make me broken, from a commie perspective?

-Arrian

* - some of this may change if/when I have kids, because that tends to get people more involved socially

	08-12-2004 01:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [The point was they planned for the future.

No more so than we do now. It is just that their ability to cause a lot of trouble was a lot less than our ability now. You have to remember that the southwest used to have a lot of trees. The native americans in that region pretty much deforested the place a few thousand years ago.

	08-12-2004 01:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by pchang You have to remember that the southwest used to have a lot of trees. The native americans in that region pretty much deforested the place a few thousand years ago.

Having been on an archeology dig in the area, I have to say you are incorrect. It's been a scrubby desert for much of the period of human civilization there.

	08-12-2004 02:00									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'll tell you this... If I had more free time, I would most likely spend it on the things I like to do - and most of those things are anti-social (reading, playing computer games) or apply only to small groupings of friends*.

No, it makes you an American.

	08-12-2004 02:06									#79
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I think it just means that I'm a bit of a hermit.

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 02:08									#80
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That's what I said.

	08-12-2004 02:11									#81
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Let's get into the issue of short-sightedness some more. It's something that tends to get me all fired up IRL. It's clear to me that one of the primary weaknesses of democracy is the tendency of politicians to look ahead only as far as the next election.

So, how do we deal with that? Given that I continue to believe democracy is the best form of government available, how does one get politicians to look farther ahead than 4 or maybe 8 years?

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 02:22									#82
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I'll have to think about that.

	08-12-2004 02:24									#83
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It's not an easy question, by any stretch.

Obviously, the electorate has to demand long-term strategy, and punish politicians who are short-sighted by not re-electing them. But how do we get there?

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 02:29									#84
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One way would be if the media actually paid attention to real problems and investigated them. It would probably also help if the right-wing pundits weren't deliberately lying to their audience. How about a truth in media law?

	08-12-2004 02:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's not an easy question, by any stretch. Obviously, the electorate has to demand long-term strategy, and punish politicians who are short-sighted by not re-electing them. But how do we get there? -Arrian

Its tough. More information on long term goals might help but I think that most people will remain more concerned about the economy NOW than even the economy 15 years from now.

But there are examples where people have grudgingly accepted short term pain in the name of a long etrm benefit. The government cutbacks in Canada in the 80s are an example-=-Although painful and fought vehemently by some, you did see a significant portion of the population accepting the short term pain in the name of long-term fiscal health

	08-12-2004 02:38									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's not an easy question, by any stretch. Obviously, the electorate has to demand long-term strategy, and punish politicians who are short-sighted by not re-electing them. But how do we get there? -Arrian

Its tough. More information on long term goals might help but I think that most people will remain more concerned about the economy NOW than even the economy 15 years from now.

But there are examples where people have grudgingly accepted short term pain in the name of a long etrm benefit. The government cutbacks in Canada in the 80s are an example-=-Although painful and fought vehemently by some, you did see a significant portion of the population accepting the short term pain in the name of long-term fiscal health

	08-12-2004 02:44									#87
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National referrendums, national recall of elected officials? It's good Gray Davis got booted for lying to the people of California.

How about a truth in politics law? Make it illegal for someone to lie to the American public when running for or holding public office.

	08-12-2004 03:16									#88
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"Truth in" laws instantly worry me. I agree that, ideally, people shouldn't lie, especially if they have the ability to lie to millions and be believed. However, inevitably there will be two problems:

1) What's a "lie" and what is "spin?"
2) Will such legislation effectively discourage good investigative reporting b/c if a reporter goes after a powerful organization/group, that group might try and go after them for "lying" about them?

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 03:30									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How about a truth in politics law? Make it illegal for someone to lie to the American public when running for or holding public office.

Wow-- so we could watch the two major parties taking even more frequent trips to the courthouse than we do now

Also would reasonable belief be a defense?? Politicians could then be "accidentally" misinformed so they could then continue the same types of statements with impunity.

	08-12-2004 03:35									#90
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Let the CPA run things.


If you pollute, I'll have you shot.

Going to pollute now, boy?