08-12-2004 03:35									#91
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Exactly. Unenforceable and/or easy to manipulate (by those with money & power, anyway!).

It seems to me that this is a cultural issue. Culture isn't something that is easily changed.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Talk to ya later,

-Arrian

	08-12-2004 04:04									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If the corporations create the social cost they need to pay for it. Where's your devotion to personal responsibility? You don't include corporations in that world view?

a) The bulk of pollution comes from consumers.
b) Corps are in fact held responsible and to higher standards than individuals
c) There is documented evidence adnauseum of personal responsibility and personal liability assumed within the context of corps and environmental responsibility.
d) Corps do in fact have legal obligations that they are held to and moreso...
e) Arrians point is on the money, changing landscape of legal requirements not to pollute have in turn poisoned the climate to do business in the US.

Which leads to the inevitbale punishing those so called non-responsible corps does what.... It causes that ohhh sooo desirous situation you decry. Outsourcing.

The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

	08-12-2004 04:10									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Wow-- so we could watch the two major parties taking even more frequent trips to the courthouse than we do now Also would reasonable belief be a defense?? Politicians could then be "accidentally" misinformed so they could then continue the same types of statements with impunity.

I'm an ideas man. Don't bother me with details.

	08-12-2004 04:10									#94
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quote: The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

From an economical stance, of course

	08-12-2004 23:24									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe a) The bulk of pollution comes from consumers. b) Corps are in fact held responsible and to higher standards than individuals c) There is documented evidence adnauseum of personal responsibility and personal liability assumed within the context of corps and environmental responsibility. d) Corps do in fact have legal obligations that they are held to and moreso... e) Arrians point is on the money, changing landscape of legal requirements not to pollute have in turn poisoned the climate to do business in the US. Which leads to the inevitbale punishing those so called non-responsible corps does what.... It causes that ohhh sooo desirous situation you decry. Outsourcing. The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

Ah. So you still want to pay a corporation for not doing something?

	08-12-2004 23:32									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, please. As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

He was talking about consumerism. You think other societies have been more consumeristic? Maybe you should study harder.

	08-12-2004 23:41									#97
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He was talking more generally than just that, Kid, but he was focusing on consumerism - a point which I granted him (though I added the caveat that though our society may be more shortsighted & greedy, it's not significantly moreso than many others - especially the example of Europe, which he brought up).

Che and I managed to have a reasonable discussion, by the way, without either one of us insinuating that the other was ignorant. Because neither of us is, and we each understand that it's entirely possible to be well-educated and yet have widely divergent world-views.

-Arrian

	09-12-2004 00:10									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ah. So you still want to pay a corporation for not doing something?

NO that would imply I would be in favor of companies not producing anything as that would be the only way to 100% ensure they are "not doing something" either through direct consequence of their manufacturing process or use by their customer.

	09-12-2004 00:19									#99
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Vel, I think you're going to have headaches for the rest of your life from all of the you inflict on yourself.

(I'll probably be the same way )

	09-12-2004 00:22									#100
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Just a comment:

It's stupid to complain about pollution as a weakness of capitalism, because in no way are pollution regulations antithetical to capitalism or even laissez-faire capitalism. When you pollute, you are actually inflicting harm on others. Laws to reduce pollution are no more inconsistent with capitalism than laws against murder.

	09-12-2004 00:25									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Che and I managed to have a reasonable discussion, by the way, without either one of us insinuating that the other was ignorant. Because neither of us is, and we each understand that it's entirely possible to be well-educated and yet have widely divergent world-views. -Arrian

I don't find you so civil.

	09-12-2004 00:27									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe NO that would imply I would be in favor of companies not producing anything as that would be the only way to 100% ensure they are "not doing something" either through direct consequence of their manufacturing process or use by their customer.

If you want to pay companies for not poluting then cutting back polution will result in you paying them, since their polution will be lower.

	09-12-2004 00:27									#103
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Or you could simply send the polluters to jail.

	09-12-2004 00:30									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Just a comment: It's stupid to complain about pollution as a weakness of capitalism, because in no way are pollution regulations antithetical to capitalism or even laissez-faire capitalism. When you pollute, you are actually inflicting harm on others. Laws to reduce pollution are no more inconsistent with capitalism than laws against murder.

Except there is a question as to whether you can have laws to reduce polution to an acceptable level with capitalism. Anti polution laws hurt profit and jobs. Capitalims depends on both.

	09-12-2004 00:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Or you could simply send the polluters to jail.

That already happens in the industry side of things but almost never on the consumer side of the equation.

	09-12-2004 00:34									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Except there is a question as to whether you can have laws to reduce polution to an acceptable level with capitalism. Anti polution laws hurt profit and jobs. Capitalims depends on both.

Which is why it is necessary to incent rather than deter. Which by the by is actually doing something as opposed to your definition of "not doing something". "Not doing something" would be allowing the status quo means of wasteful manufacturing something communistic societies have a long track record of.

	09-12-2004 00:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Except there is a question as to whether you can have laws to reduce polution to an acceptable level with capitalism. Anti polution laws hurt profit and jobs. Capitalims depends on both.

err well yes and no. A given industry is hurt by anti-pollution laws but then again there is a whole new environmental industry that crops up where companies find new products and new methods to reduce pollution in a cost -effective way. reducing emissions MAY be an economic driver in situations where a company needs to replace older machinery ( I say "may" since the production in the old polluting method may just be outsourced to a place with less stringent standards)

	09-12-2004 00:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't find you so civil.

Which is not suprising since you often find those that disagree with you to be uncivil. Also, you are, on some occasions, one of the least civil posters I have encountered.

	09-12-2004 00:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Which is why it is necessary to incent rather than deter. Which by the by is actually doing something as opposed to your definition of "not doing something". "Not doing something" would be allowing the status quo menas of wasteful manufacturing.

I doubt you will get many supporters for subsidies like these. Look at farm subsidies.

	09-12-2004 00:45									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber err well yes and no. A given industry is hurt by anti-pollution laws but then again there is a whole new environmental industry that crops up where companies find new products and new methods to reduce pollution in a cost -effective way. reducing emissions MAY be an economic driver in situations where a company needs to replace older machinery ( I say "may" since the production in the old polluting method may just be outsourced to a place with less stringent standards)

Is what you say real? I don't think so. Polution is at an very unacceptable level, and we have trouble with the economy.

	09-12-2004 00:46									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Which is not suprising since you often find those that disagree with you to be uncivil. Also, you are, on some occasions, one of the least civil posters I have encountered.

It's that I disagree with uncivil people.

	09-12-2004 00:51									#112
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"Acceptable"

All because the commies have more important things to complain about...

I see we quiet all the environmentalist and then our pollution levels would be acceptable

	09-12-2004 01:01									#113
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One of the major problems with the fight against pollution is that people aren't willing to spend the time & money to properly test new products and/or chemicals to see if they're potentially hazardous to human health.

This goes to the short-sightedness issue. Companies (or the government) want their products out now now now, and the government doesn't have the willpower to say "no, test it thoroughly first!" Of course, testing is expensive (in both time and money). Other countries who are less gun shy might allow production first and reap the economic rewards...

So a product gets into the market and often is extensively used (and transferred into the environment) before somebody figures out that it's harmful.

From a straight economic perspective, is it smart to do it this way? Maybe, but I have my doubts. The profit to society from the use of some new wundergood may be large, but ultimately these cleanups are, like I said before, extremely expensive in their own right. From a moral/human perspective, I think it's pretty clear that stricter testing should be required.

...

I think there is a pretty big problem w/regard to regulation in small business. It's one thing to demand stronger regulations on waste handling/disposal and point to GE or somesuch large manufacturer. That makes it seem fairly trivial to do inspections & monitor emissions. But how about, say, the dry cleaning industry? There's a bazillion dry cleaners out there, and they pretty much all use hazardous chemicals (tetrachloroethylene). I know from experience that contaminated dry cleaner sites are common. Given the sheer number of them, how do we effectively regulate w/o spending too much on it (and how much is too much?)? We're not talking about installing a sensor in smokestack here, we're talking about sending a government employee out to a place of business and inspecting it. Frequently.

-Arrian

	09-12-2004 01:26									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Japher "Acceptable" All because the commies have more important things to complain about... I see we quiet all the environmentalist and then our pollution levels would be acceptable

You don't have to be an environmentalist to find polution unacceptable if someone in your family has lung desease. And I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a corporation for not giving people lung desease. They should pay.

	09-12-2004 01:28									#115
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Kid, did you mean "unacceptable" in your second-to-last post?

-Arrian

	09-12-2004 01:29									#116
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yeah, thanx

	09-12-2004 01:38									#117
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See how civil I am?

-Arrian

	09-12-2004 01:40									#118
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Farm subsidies are an apples and oranges comparison. Farms subsidies are paying farmers to not produce and to set aside land for reasons of overproduction moreso than environmental protection. Any meaningful 'subsidy' (and note not all incentives need take the form of subsidy as emission credit trading are not necessarily a government subsidy other than the necessity to create the market in the first place) would be tied to per unit production emissions.

	09-12-2004 01:43									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian See how civil I am? -Arrian

You are when you aren't being a capitalist.

	09-12-2004 01:51									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Farm subsidies are an apples and oranges comparison. Farms subsidies are paying farmers to not produce and to set aside land for reasons of overproduction moreso than environmental protection. Any meaningful 'subsidy' (and note not all incentives need take the form of subsidy as emission credit trading are not necessarily a government subsidy other than the necessity to create the market in the first place) would be tied to per unit production emissions.

I think it's more like tangerins and oranges. Tax breaks to corporations for not harming our air is not going to be popular. Taxing them would work just fine if they didn't have so much influence in with the govt. That's the real problem.