11-12-2004 12:38									#61
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Well .... IŽd like to do some nit-picking too if you two gentlemen do not mind after all

I do strongly believe that a possible WW3/enlengthened WW2 would have serious consequences on both sides of the Atlantic. For instance, official War Dept. documents from 1944/45 state it could possibly cost up to 500.000 G.I.s to invade and secure alone Honshu.

Considering D-Day never occurred there are two ways in my imagination about the huge U.S. industrial output and its weapons:

(1) The U.S. are sitting on loads and loads of their equipment which would have gone to Europe. Well, basically not to bad though the G.I.s would never have reported how bad the Shermans would have been doing against Tigers or Panthers - which would mean the U.S. equipment would have to be some kind of obsolete by then.

(This would be rather Red Front like, donŽt you think so? I mean: Huge numbers of obsolete weaponry against the German Juggernaut.)

(2) Enlenghtened WW2/WW3 would have done the same thing to the U.S. society as fighting Hitler had done to the British society. I mean: instituting a universal draft, gung-ho patriotism (remember Churchill stating the Brits would fight on land, sea, air, beaches, etc and never surrender? I can imagine something like that.) If you look to what Britain was struggling with in the aftermath of real WW2 you can say it eroded its society I guess.

Concerning these points it would be highly possible the U.S. would adopt some kind of more autoritarian goverment style itself fighting on its homeland, maybe stating it would fight its 2nd War of Independence ...

Just some thoughts ...

	11-12-2004 14:51									#62
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Keep in mind too - That While the USA had her massed industry -
With the vast rescources of Europe under it's control, the 3rd Reich would too be a powerhouse.

Even while both sides would be depleted from years of war -
This world would already be one of mass famine, conscription, 25-year old generals and ruination.

Personally, I love it!

And keep in mind too, by this time, the German Axis forces
are no longer a titanic 'black corps' or blonde SS 'supermen.'

There would thousands of foreign and auxillary soldiers under Hitler's banner.
Probably plenty of Western Europeans, Russians and perhaps even British.

And don't forget - Germany has the lead in ballistic/jet science...!
And there was no Von Braun helping the USA in this timeline!

Will the atom bomb be a factor?
And will it be countered, or all-conquering?

This scenario will no doubt rule!

	11-12-2004 18:34									#63
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Please take also into account that the German supply lines would be more than long and overstretched.

It is one thing to drive from the Eiffel to Abbeville but another one driving armoured columns through New Mexico and Texas into the heartland of the United States ...

And besides, Germany would also have an edge when it comes to submarine technology - which would result to operate under a sky totally dominated by the USAAF's heavy bombers

	11-12-2004 19:10									#64
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Without the UK as a base, there would be no USAAF bomber campaign - In Harry's world,
the 8th would have withdrawn long ago to the pacific or for US home defence.

	11-12-2004 23:04									#65
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Personally Curt I love your line about twenty-five year old generals the best, hell that means I could have made at least Major by now. Now I don't doubt that Germany is indeed a true industrial superpower, quite possibly the greatest industrial power on earth. I still think the sabateour units are a good idea if only to reflect the fact that German war planners would had plans to sabotage the American war industry, as well as create havoc with America's rail lines and highways.

	12-12-2004 03:31									#66
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Just how deep into Texas will the Germans be Harry at the time the scenario begins? Will they still be on their beacheads possibly at Galveston and Chorpus Christi or will they have pressed further inland to San Antonio and or Houston? Also what path do you see the Germans taking once they've taken Dallas.

The reason I ask is I can see a couple of different options for them. They could either drive west into New Mexico, Arizona and finally California until they reach the Pacific. Or they could maybe drive north into Oaklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska and possibly pushing further all the way through the Dakota's until they reach the Canadian border, effectivly cutting America in half.

Of course then there's also the option of instread moving east to secure the entire American Gulf Coast.

	12-12-2004 03:37									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sarsstock Just how deep into Texas will the Germans be Harry at the time the scenario begins? Will they still be on their beacheads possibly at Galveston and Chorpus Christi or will they have pressed further inland to San Antonio and or Houston? Also what path do you see the Germans taking once they've taken Dallas. The reason I ask is I can see a couple of different options for them. They could either drive west into New Mexico, Arizona and finally California until they reach the Pacific. Or they could maybe drive north into Oaklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska and possibly pushing further all the way through the Dakota's until they reach the Canadian border, effectivly cutting America in half. Of course then there's also the option of instread moving east to secure the entire American Gulf Coast.

I prefer the "Red Dawn" tactic pioneered in Kurt Russel's gripping epic where the invading army drives north cutting the country in half. Of course this is all up to the AI

I think there will be some small inroads into Texas at the start as the Germans come up from Mexico. The main thrust will probably to invade east of the Mississippi and into the main industrial centers.

	12-12-2004 04:36									#68
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I foresee some thrilling unit stack killing!

	12-12-2004 04:45									#69
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I foresee some thrilling unit stack killing!

Not around major cities. . The suburbs will have fortress overlays to depict house to house fighting.



On another note, I've looked for any tips on this and I've come up dry. How exactly do I make terrain impassable in ToT? Also, how do I assign a specific unit to be able to pass over impassable terrain. I can see in the rules.txt that I can assign this value to any number of units, but I can't see where I make a certain terrain impassable. Gurus?

	12-12-2004 07:13									#70
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Wow, Jim I have to give you props, this map is actually very accurate. The only thing I noticed is that the major rivers that the major cities sit on are not ocean squares, which is fine of course, I just have to make sure I place the cities correctly.

I have eliminated more of the unpopulated sections of Canada to cut down on map space, as well as eliminated a good portion of South America, which would just be an AI problem waiting to happen anyways.

Also, I am debating adding a huge land area to the South West of Central America to eliminate the large track of ocean. I hope, if anyone can answer my impassable terrain question, to cordon that off for play, and possibly make that area a staging area to depict American units being "airlifted" from Japan and China. This would be a similar idea to what Yoshi had in his "Battle for the Aplha Quadrant" scenario where Dominion units had to "Travel through the wormhole" to get to the main map area.

	12-12-2004 15:52									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Not around major cities. . The suburbs will have fortress overlays to depict house to house fighting. On another note, I've looked for any tips on this and I've come up dry. How exactly do I make terrain impassable in ToT? Also, how do I assign a specific unit to be able to pass over impassable terrain. I can see in the rules.txt that I can assign this value to any number of units, but I can't see where I make a certain terrain impassable. Gurus?

Here is an example of my terrain section of Bitterfrost rules.txt -
Notice how mountains and dark forest have 'yes' as the second last entry.

This denotes them as impassable...

@TERRAIN
Enchanted, 1,2, 2,1,4, no, 0, 0, 0, no, 0, 0, 0, no,no, ; Drt
Thawland, 1,2, 1,1,0, yes, 0, 6, 1, no, 0, 0, 0, no,no, ; Pln
Hearthland, 1,2, 2,1,0, yes, 2, 4, 1, no, 0, 0, 0, no,no, ; Grs
Forest, 3,3, 1,2,0, no, 0, 0, 0, Pln, 0,12, 2, no,no, ; For
Hills, 2,4, 1,1,0, yes, 1, 6, 1, yes, 2, 6, 1, no,no, ; Hil
Mountains, 3,6, 0,1,0, no, 0, 0, 0, yes, 2, 6, 1, no,yes, ; Mou
Frostland, 2,2, 1,0,0, no, 0, 0, 0, yes, 1,12, 2, no,no, ; Tun
Deathland, 2,2, 0,0,0, no, 0, 0, 0, yes, 1,12, 2, no,no, ; Gla
Barren, 1,3, 0,1,0, no, 0, 0, 0, no, 0, 0, 0, no,no, ; Swa
Dark Forest,4,4, 1,0,0, For, 0,24, 2, For, 0,24, 2, no,yes, ; Jun
Cold Sea, 1,2, 1,0,2, no, 0, 0, 0, no, 0, 0, 0, no,no, ; Oce
Artefacts, 1,2, 1,1,9,
Hilve Tubes,1,2, 1,2,2,
Hearthland, 1,2, 2,1,0,
Timber, 2,3, 1,3,1,
Jibestone, 1,2, 1,2,2,
Gold, 3,6, 0,1,6,
Forna Berries, 2,2, 2,1,1,
Bones, 2,3, 0,1,1,
Evil Pool, 2,3, 0,1,0,
Ancient Idol, 2,2, 0,1,4,
Fish, 1,2, 3,0,2,
Lodestones, 1,2, 1,3,6,
Flupper Fruit, 1,2, 3,1,1,
Hearthland, 1,2, 2,1,0,
Porcine Game, 2,3, 2,2,2,
Frogstools, 1,2, 3,0,0,
Meteoric Iron, 3,6, 0,3,4,
Durnbeetles,2,2, 2,1,1,
Doomed Ruins, 2,3, 0,1,1,
Ivory Bones, 2,3, 0,2,1,
Jikker Fruit, 2,3, 3,0,0,
Seabirds, 1,2, 2,2,2,

Now to make our units get by these impassable terrains -
Go down the ToT rules until you come to '; Advanced unit fields' -
Don't be scared by these sections - This is where the fun happens!

Now look at the columns of 0s and 1s.
You will notice that each has a letter (A to G) assigned at the top,
The one you are interested in is G, and you will notice these columns
work the same way as unit powers in the regular MGE units list.
This is the extra cool stuff that you can add in ToT.

What you do is look at the key at the top of the list.
You will see that
the 'unit may enter impassable terrain:' property is:

00010000 - This goes under the G section, corresponding with your unit on the list...

Also - You may find it easier to rename the default units in the advanced list to match your scenario units.

If you study this and other advancedsection in rules, you will
that you can do awesome stuff -
Like make units into stealth, and also restrict units to certain civs -

...Without any tech tree tweaking!

Hope this has helped!

	13-12-2004 02:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Without the UK as a base, there would be no USAAF bomber campaign - In Harry's world, the 8th would have withdrawn long ago to the pacific or for US home defence.

@ Curt, (Harry too): If the 8th USAAF would have been deployed to England I agree it would have been withdrawn in the events preceding a German victory/cease-fire.

Though I guess the US would have relocated it to Iceland, Greenland, maybe Newfoundland to secure the Eastern approaches to America ...

I also want to point out that Germany might have far superior equipment when it comes to fighters and tanks but that the bombing business would be in Yankee hands - meaning it would be quite difficult to operate under the carpet bombing of the Americans (maybe a bit like the Battle of the Bulge ...?)

Please take into account that Germany is heading for the oil wells in Texas as some kind of primary objective to cut the Yankees off their raw oil supplies.

And btw, what about the US preventing further Nazi reinforcements with the 8th USAAF stationed on the Bermudas, Greenland, maybe Iceland too - until the Nazis rocketeer attacks upon New York and other East coast cities (randomturn events?) ...

Or ... even more weird: like in Red Alert 2 .... trigger some psyops causing havoc in the rear of the US forces by psycho-control ...?

	13-12-2004 06:29									#73
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Sweet, thanks Curt. I can now finish the map.

As for Jim's idea about cutting off Nazi reinforcements, I have been toying with the idea of creating "super cities" that inhabit fictional islands off the coast of Central America and off the coast of Bermuda. Basicaly these cities would represent China, Japan, and Europe with their respective American and Nazi troops.

The cities would be surrounded with the high production shield terrain tiles and would all have airports. They could produce a number of units and airlift them over enemy territory simulating reinforcements being flown in from over the ocean. All the cities would be surrounded by impassable terrain and would be unable to produce sea units.

What do you guys think?

	13-12-2004 06:36									#74
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It solves the issue of where the reinforcements are coming from!

I think you should go for it - !

PS
Will there be any Japanese units making a guest appearance...

Perhaps some troops who escaped the fall of the home islands?

	13-12-2004 11:16									#75
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Harry I think its a great idea to have those "Super Cities". I also think it might be an interesting idea of having Japanese troops fighting on the American side, after the Americans took the Japanese home islands. Or do you think there simply wouldn't be enough Japanese willing to fight for America after one of the bloddiest land wars in history on the Japanese mainland?

Also Harry, I forget how Korea plays the storyline. Has the Korean Penninsula also been liberated by Amierca? I ask because it might be interesting to see Korean troops as well. Might we see some Australian forces as well in the fight for the America's?

	13-12-2004 11:31									#76
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I'll think about having Pacific theatre allies added. The problem with this is really twofold. The Japanese and Koreans would be rebuilding and I doubt that a recent enemy that had taken a huge amount of American lives would really be welcomed to the States. Japan was an ally of the Nazis of course. The Austrailians I could see as they are Commonwealth.

Anyways, if anything, the Japanese and Koreans, even the Chinese, wouldn't have any units to really send over besides infantry. Tank warfare was never big over there and any aircraft they could send would be out of date, even if the Imperials did copy the Me 262, and get it past prototype and have the infrastructure to build a few squadrons.

I might include Austrailian and maybe some Korean "defense force" infantry, just to spice it up, but that's about it for the Pacific theatre.

As for the airlifting I think I'll just leave it up to the Americans as the Nazis will already have their spawned units.

	13-12-2004 13:12									#77
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Mmmm, Harry, IŽd say make only small cities with airlifts instead of super ones - the Nazis would have had a more than serious problem carrying their troops to America with the USAAF's heavy bombers on duty patrolling the seas around America ...

	13-12-2004 15:35									#78
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Not if the Germans ferry to their units to South America, out of the range of the USAAF.

And what about German interceptors?
By this time, the Luftwaffe seriously has an edge in advanced jet craft.

I think the supercities are essential to keep the battle going, not any historical consideration.

	13-12-2004 18:40									#79
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I've played a couple of scens where there have been AI controlled allied civs with AI controlled units. They are the biggest imaginable pain in the ***.

They block roads and RR's, get in your way everywhere, wander around behind your lines (that makes me real nervous), and their aircraft and ships are a general nuisance. The one thing that they don't do is fight the enemy. What's worse, there is no way to get rid of them or their damned civ.

Have an American Foreign Legion or units of another nationality under American control, but never any accursed allies. Please.

	13-12-2004 21:56									#80
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I agree, best to keep the enemy AI - But!

You could make sure all AI units are role '3' attackers.

That way, they always go in for the kill.

	15-12-2004 23:53									#81
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@Curt: American & Central American are all I can think of for city styles. I think that your cities that you posted would just about cover it. One thing though, do you think that you could make me a German army base and an American army base? I was thinking of using the graphic for beachhead cities and outposts.

	16-12-2004 17:33									#82
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Sure thing!
It won't be too hard to construct some edited city types from ones I have...

I will gather the following (in ToT format)

USA cities
Nazi-controlled USA cities
Canadian cities
South American cities

I'll get em' done around the weekend...

	16-12-2004 19:00									#83
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I was wondering Harry, are we going to see Mexico under American control as well with Mexican units under American control like with the Canadian cities and Canadian units? Even if the answer is yes, I can't really picture more than one or two mexican infantry units being in the game.

Not that thats meant to be a slight against the Mexian Amry, but I can't imagine the Mexican Army being particularily strong in this timeline, unless in your storyline the American government forgave some of Mexico's debt in exchange for a pledge by the Mexican government to invest more in defence.

	16-12-2004 19:24									#84
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Won't Mexico be teeming with SS and panzers at this time...?

	16-12-2004 19:27									#85
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Well I was under the impression that it was only a large portion of Eastern Mexico that was under German occupation. Provinces such as Chihuaha and Sonora I figured were still under Mexican control, otherwise Germany would also be able to launch an offensive agaisnt Southern California in addition to their offensive into Texas.

Is that the case Harry?

	16-12-2004 20:41									#86
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@Everyone: The deal is that most of Mexico will be under German control. Some provinces will still be Mexican, but the majority of the Mexican Gulf Coast up through the Rio Grande will be German. Also, I will probably include Canada as a Civ, but not allow them to make units. Most likely I'll just have an event that moves money from their treasury to the American treasury.

@Curt: Thank you!

	16-12-2004 20:59									#87
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Canada as its own Civ? Well I suppose that could work but I do think the Canadian War Industry, though smaller than their American counterpart would make a significant contribution to America's resistance to German aggresion.

Either way, I'm sure you'll make the right choice Harry!

	16-12-2004 21:11									#88
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Don't worry!
There are enough unit slots and events space in ToT to fling in a few Canuck army attacks as and when needed.

It's early days yet!

	16-12-2004 22:21									#89
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Well we've already gone through the problems with having the AI controll friendly allied units Curt, but like I said before I'm sure Harry will find the best way to integrate both Canada and Mexico into the American War effort the best way possible.

	16-12-2004 22:38									#90
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I was assuming Canadian units would be awarded to the USA for control - etc.

And I agree, it will be good...No need to worry!