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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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If the Germans are already in Mexico (and the Caribbean) why worry about trans-Atlantic bombing. Simply base the bombers in German-held territory. A plane with the range of the B-29 (~3000 miles) could reach most of the continental US as well as parts of Canada.
Operating any of the Amerika bombers from these bases would be more realistic than having them use some non-existent mid-Atlantic base. However, if the bombers require escorts, their range would have to be reduced to something that more closely approximates that of fighters.
quote:
Originally posted by jim panse The other thing I am wondering about is how on earth the Nazis were able to set up bases in Mexico and Latin America and the Caribbean Basin - well within the bombing range of the heavy bombers of the USAAF - without America sending its Marines to intervene ... any ideas, Harry? |
Right-wing dictatorships were a popular form of government in Latin America in the late 30's. They would see which way the wind was blowing and probably wouldn't require much "persuasion" to cooperate with a victorious Germany. Neutral shipping might become available to bring over lots of German aid in the form of "tourists", "advisors" and construction crews with "construction equipment" to improve such things as airfields etc. Think German Bund and Fifth Column.
This brings up another point. How would the Germans supply an overseas operation of this magnitude. IIRC, the US had a very good, veteran sub fleet by '45 that had just made a major contribution to the victory over Japan. They would likely have major successes against a Kriegsmarine that had no ASW experience.
Maybe some things have to be taken on faith. This is, after all, an alternate history scen. Let's cut Harry some slack, there cannot be a logical explanation for everything. I'm looking forward to a rousing fight full of unpleasant surprises. Reality be damned!
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Sarsstock
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Well I'm officially going on the record as supporting the idea of including Sänger Orbital Bomber's in this game Harry. Just imagine the psychological effect a low orbital bomber would have on the American population. It almost reminds me of the effect the V1 caused initially in Great Britain, a wide spread panic that terror could rein down from the skies at barely a moments notice.
In the case of the V1 at least the British population had some, albeit short warning. In the case of the Sänger Orbital Bomber, there would be no warning unless the Americans deploy radar capable of scanning the upper atmosphere. Even then there the only good the radar could do would be to warn the population to "hit the deck".
P.S. In the shot of the Sänger Orbital Bomber's over Chicago, you can see my house to the far right.
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Leonidas
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Operation Drumbeat (the U-boat attack off American shores in Jan/42) showed that the US was woefully unprepared to deal with attacks close to home.
A handful of U-boats sank over 500 ships in 6 months in 1942, making it America's Atlantic Pearl Harbour.
Even in 2001, the attacks on the twin towers showed how unprepared America is at home.
Long-Range Bombers:
If attacks are coming from Mexico, then America would not expect high level, LR bombers to strike along the east coast.
U-boats with V2 rockets:
There could be supply ships waiting at sea to transfer more V2s to u-boats for more attacks on American east coast cities.
In addition, the Germans could have improved upon the rocket system making them smaller, but more lethal in attack.
America will be fighting in the west along the Mexican border. The attack along the east coast is designed as a second front - unexpected and deadly.
Cheers!
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Sarsstock
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I still think Dr. Eugen Saenger could have developed the Silverbird if Rommel had commited proper funds to its development throughout the mid fourties and had the first operational versions ready for the late fourties.
This however is assuming that the German areospace industry under Rommel's rule was truley dedicated to the weaponization of space as soon as possible. Just imagine the bragging rights at stake. For Germany to put weapons in space before the year 1950 would feed the German propaganda machine for decades to come. It would have truly put new importance on the space race like never before in our timeline.
Still, even I acknowledge the Silverbird would never amount to much more than a psychological weapon without the use of a nuclear payload.
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Leonidas
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One way to avoid the "US has too much weapons" issue, is to assume that America was never attacked by Japan, and therefore never entered WWII.
America elected another president who kept the country out of the war.
The Nazis won, took over all of Europe, Russia and England, and now is attacking an unprepared, isolationist America.
This would have the effect of forcing the player to build up his forces to meet the Axis threat. . .
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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Hi everybody. It's your resident Doubting Thomas again.
@Leonidas
Fantastic web sites, especially luft46. Excellent graphic of the mission flight path of the Sänger bomber. I had not considered that every mission would involve a bouncety-bouncety trip around the world back to the take-off area. I was trying to work out how the bomber could be turned around after completing its mission. Duhh. 
The art work of Germany's advanced and futuristic aircraft is a must see. One can definitely see where the ideas for many of the postwar US experimental aircraft came from.
@Sarsstock
quote:
P.S. In the shot of the Sänger Orbital Bomber's over Chicago, you can see my house to the far right. |
In that case you need not have the least concern about this marvel of misguided, or should I say, unguided German engineering. With late 40's technology, the bomb aimer either does not know or can't control
-the exact location of the plane
-the altitude of the plane
-the speed of the plane
-the speed and attitude of the bomb when it hits the atmosphere
-what the bomb would do when it hits the atmosphere
a. Bounce in some unpredictable direction
b. Dig in and burn up or explode
c. Proceed on a predictable path
d. Keep bouncing straight ahead and end up back at the launch point just as the bomber is landing. 
-what the jet stream and surface winds are doing
If the bombardier put the cross hairs on your house, there would certainly be an explosion or falling debris somewhere:
Probably in the midwest.
Possibly in Illinois.
Maybe in Cook County.
Unlikely in Chicago.
Hit your abode? About as likely as a snowball surviving in h**l. 
I forgot one thing in my earlier sceptical comments about a U-boat towing a V-2 canister and then launching the rocket. IIRC, the V-2 was a liquid fueled rocket where the two fuel tanks (one LOX) had to be filled just before launch. That would have been a really exciting exercise in one of those canisters bobbing up and down in the Atlantic. Moreover, what is required to keep LOX in its liquid state for a couple of weeks? A refrigeration plant? Unfortunately, large solid fuel rockets were at least a decade in the future.
I'm getting to the point where, to me, the only "wonder" in German wonder weapons is "I really wonder what the h**l they were thinking". 
Ingenious? Most certainly, yes. Practical? No way Jose!
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Harry Tuttle
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of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:16
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You guys really seem to be into this.
Well, if anything, I'd like to make every unit in the game practical. Also, there will of course have to be a little suspension of logical thought in this one, as I'm sure you guys can see.
Picture this. America never went to war with Germany until 1947 with the first AE. A sort of Cold War had risen with Germany as America's attention was focused on the Japanese and then fighting side by side with the Nationalists in China from Dec 1941 and then on.
Europe is forgotten in the national psyche after France falls and Britain proves that they can hold their own against invasion. Better yet, the Nazis are focused on beating the Soviets and share the same disdain for Communism as many Americans do. Western Europe has been conquered, but the bulk of the Nazi army is 2000 miles away. Western Europe is being consolidated, but fighting in China with American troops trumps any news coming out of Vichy France.
Sure, there are those who demand action in Europe, but on the whole there are more people who are weary of the last bloodbath that America has had.
So slowly, ever so slowly, Americas guard is let down on its eastern flank. "Why would the Germans atack us?" they say. "They would never try such a thing, not with the Atlantic ocean in their way and Americas might."
"Heck, why should we spend our money on rebuilding our army? We have a huge navy, plenty of airplanes, and besides, all the soldiers have come home, started a family, and have started to live the American dream. The economy is simply booming!"
"Let the Germans police Europe. All the Europeans were ever good for was for starting wars. I'm sure the Nazis have their hands full..."
And slowly, ever so slowly, the noose grows tighter.
Finally, in 1947, the tide breaks. The Nazis attack Britain again. The American President finally decides that there is enough of a reason to declare war. The public is finally swayed to stand up.
The Americans, sitting behind their expanse of water say: "Ah hell, we'll beat them easily, we have our grand Navy to protect us. The Brits will hold out long enough for us to get some ships up in their. We'll be fine."
And then, something unimaginable happens. The Nazis land at Oaks Ridge and attack a government installation on American soil. In the next few days the public learns that a highly advanced German bomber is shot down over Kings County. It crashes in Westchester releasing some sort of poison material, making hundreds sick.
Suddenly, the American public and government realize that they are in deep ****. With the bulk of the American armed forces halfway around the world and Germany closing fast there is indecision in the militray command. Millions are called up to active duty but confusion reigns supreme. The Panama strait is being mined up and down the coast. Saboteurs strike in the major metropolitan areas! Mass riots!
.
.
.
And there you see where the Germans gain the upper hand.
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Sarsstock
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Well Harry your the biggest reason we've all been debating idea's and aspect's of this game. The great stories are the ones you can just loose yourself in. Like this one here...
I also love description of the American psyche in this timeline, you make it highly plausible that America could indeed have stayed out of the war. I can almost see the mass confusion now.... soliders overflowing at every train and bus station from Charleston to Portland. State police closing every highway and major road along the east coast ahead of a possible invasion. Civilian riots at grocery and hardware stores from Albany to Santa Fe as a fear of shortages looks real. Nationwide blackouts only add to the tention as the greatest war of their generation, a second war of American independance is ready to begin.
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Sarsstock
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Well Harry, I was just working under the assumption that though there are a great many physical fit and athletic troopers out there, typically they would not be in the shape of front line troops and I thought that should be represented.
Glad you liked them!!
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