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Zevico is offline Zevico
Chieftain
Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:02
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From http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1102432932687
quote:
Six decades after the mass extermination of six million Jews in the Holocaust by Nazi Germany, more than 50 percent of Germans believe that Israel's present-day treatment of the Palestinians is similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II, a German survey released this weekend shows.

51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust, compared to 49% who disagreed with such a comparison, according to the poll carried out by Germany's University of Bielefeld.

The survey also found that 68 percent of Germans believe that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Palestinians, while some 32% disagreed with such a statement.

In a first reaction, the chairman of Yad Vashem's directorate Avner Shalev said Tuesday that the poll's results, which he termed "very worrisome," were indicative of a long-suppressed felling of anti-Semitism among the mainstream "so-called liberals" population which now, under the coating of anti-Israeli criticism, are becoming legitimate again. He added that the poll's results, which he said any objective person would repudiate, are also the result of the release of pent-up feelings of guilt built up from the Holocaust.

"The energies which bring about such answers come to protect feelings of guilt," Shalev said. 62 percent of respondents in the poll said that they were sick of "all this harping" of German crimes against Jews, while 68% said that they found it "annoying" that Germans today are still held to blame for Nazi crimes against Jews.

The survey, which aimed to determine what is "the cut off point" between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, finds that while "classical" anti-Semitism in Germany is on the wane, secondary anti-Semitism, often couched in anti-Israel views are on the rise, especially among the Left.

The German researchers who conducted the polls conceded that the results showing a majority of Germans equating Israel's Policy with Nazi Atrocities "may be worrying," but concurred with Yad Vashem's Shalev that the media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinians conflict has made such analogies part of the public discourse.

"When you see an image in the newspaper, in a caricature, which is repeated day in and day out that Sharon is equal to Hitler than the image catches in your head because maybe you do not like Jews so much or maybe you hate Jews, and than this works out excellent," Shalev said, stressing that education of the young generation was the key to stemming such a tide.

In the survey, 82 percent of the respondents polled said that they are angered by the way Israel is treating the Palestinians, while 45 percent of those polled said that considering Israel's policies it was "no surprise" that people were against them.

The telephone poll of 3000 "non-migrant" respondents, which was taken in May and June, did not come with a margin of error.

"This is a very sad commentary about what is happening in Europe today which needs to send a very strong warning signal about how much work needed to be done to deal with these attitudes," said, Dr. Ephraim Zuroff, the Israel director of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Due in part to its blighted history, Germany is generally considered to be one of the more supportive countries of Israel in Europe.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:11
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Yes, we hate Jews if we don't approve what IDF is doing...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:15
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When you compare it to the Nazis, it's not the same as "disapproving". It's idiocy.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:16
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The German population has Godwinized itself and is now irrelevant in international affairs.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
When you compare it to the Nazis, it's not the same as "disapproving". It's idiocy.


Sure, but it's not "anti-semitism". It's just exaggerated and stupid.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:22
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Maybe i just don't follow the news as much as i should, so will anyone please tell me how many deathcamps and gaschambers Israel until now has built and what the daily "production" of these installations are ?

My history is also a little weak, it seems, since i can't remeber how many suicide bombs the german jews actually activated back in the 30'ies and 40'ies. In my recollection it was zero.

I don't think that those who made that resemblance between the holocaust and the israeli defence of today has any idea of what happend back when nazi ruled.

axi is offline axi
Prince
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:33
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How is the treatment of Palestinians different from the treatment of Jews in the early period 1933-1936? In appearances and results it's virtually none. The only considerable differences are:

1. The sophistication of the propaganda methods, since a modern state needs to overcome the resistances of a much more educated public.

2. The disproportionality between the power and the real size of the nation of Israel in contrast to the Arabs, which makes Israelis much more wary of their own actions than were the Germans in Nazi Germany.

In fact the general public in Germany didn't care much about what happened to the Jews, while the public in Israel is well aware that their own fate is connected to the fate of the Palestionians. This is why I believe it was much easier for the Germans to lapse into the genocidal mode, while the Israelis tend to significantly incerase their resistance as the Zionist state is going on further to oppress the Palestinians. That's why this is a process more akin to a war of attrition in contrast with the "blitzkrieg" approach the Nazis used.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by axi
How is the treatment of Palestinians different from the treatment of Jews in the early period 1933-1936? In appearances and results it's virtually none. The only considerable differences are:

1. The sophistication of the propaganda methods, since a modern state needs to overcome the resistances of a much more educated public.

2. The disproportionality between the power and the real size of the nation of Israel in contrast to the Arabs, which makes Israelis much more wary of their own actions than were the Germans in Nazi Germany.


And besides the fact that Israel doesn't want to put all of the Palestinians in industrialized death camps?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by axi
In fact the general public in Germany didn't care much about what happened to the Jews, while the public in Israel is well aware that their own fate is connected to the fate of the Palestionians. This is why I believe it was much easier for the Germans to lapse into the genocidal mode, while the Israelis tend to significantly incerase their resistance as the Zionist state is going on further to oppress the Palestinians. That's why this is a process more akin to a war of attrition in contrast with the "blitzkrieg" approach the Nazis used.


The Germans blitzkrieged through Belgium, the Netherlands, and France, not the Jews. FFS, you have no clue what you're talking about!

kronic is offline kronic
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Germany
Mar 2002
time: 06:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 05:59 Visit kronic's homepage!
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Interesting enough, this survey didn't make it to the German news yet. Normally, all news regarding Israel are immediately reported. Maybe Germans get slowly tired of their everyday confrontation with their past. I think it might actually encourage a new rise of antisemitism. Though I don't think that being against Israel's treatment of the pals is antisemitism. But then, read the last sentence of that article...

From my personal experience, I can confirm that most Germans agree that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Pals. But I have my doubts in the claim that a majority of Germans think that Israelis are practically Nazis.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:01
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Wait a second... last time I looked at the page, your post was between mine...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:04
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What Shi said.

axi is offline axi
Prince
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:06
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quote:
The Germans blitzkrieged through Belgium, the Netherlands, and France, not the Jews.


Exterminating 6 million in practically 5 years time isn't a blitz? Only Gengis Chan ever made better than that.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:09
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quote:
Exterminating 6 million in practically 5 years time isn't a blitz?


No. The holocaust has basically nothing to do with actual warfare.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:13
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Ming: This thread invoked Godwin's law in the title. You know what to do.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:16
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Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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Jan 1970
time: 23:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:31 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Ming: This thread invoked Godwin's law in the title. You know what to do.


Yep... I just shake my head as people seem to have forgotten their own countries history...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:32
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That's not what I was hoping for.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:36
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Who cares what the Germans think? They're the ones who thought the Nazis were A-OK in the first place, so why exactly should we trust their opinion on other people's actions?

Ming is offline Ming
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
That's not what I was hoping for.


I didn't think my response was what you were hoping for

axi is offline axi
Prince
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
time: 07:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:39
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quote:
No. The holocaust has basically nothing to do with actual warfare.


Υοu're more stubborn than a mule. Can't you grasp the meaning of a metaphore? Heck, even the use of the word "blitz" (lightning) in German to characterise warfare is a friggin metaphore!

Plus, when a confrontation has scores of dead and wounded, it's a war, no doubt!

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:44
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Nazis? No.

Apartheid? Pretty much.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
The German population has Godwinized itself and is now irrelevant in international affairs.


Godunov's Corrollary:

Whenever a subject involving the Nazis is brought up for discussion, there is a one-to-one chance that some bozo will invoke Godwin's Law incorrectly.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:29 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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IDF Defender is the best Counterstike weapon

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by axi
Υοu're more stubborn than a mule. Can't you grasp the meaning of a metaphore? Heck, even the use of the word "blitz" (lightning) in German to characterise warfare is a friggin metaphore!


Except it's meaningless. There is no institutionalized slaughter of Palestinians. There is an open military conflict. No one considers people killed in bombing raids on Britain victims of the holocaust. It's a stupid comparison.

quote:
Plus, when a confrontation has scores of dead and wounded, it's a war, no doubt!


Uh, no, when you just march people into gas chambers and kill them, it's not war, it's institutionalized mass murder.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:17
  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Godunov's Corrollary:

Whenever a subject involving the Nazis is brought up for discussion, there is a one-to-one chance that some bozo will invoke Godwin's Law incorrectly.


comparing a group you don't like (IDF) to the nazis is exactly what godwin's law covers

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:41 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:51
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Yeah, Americans killed indians. I guess their opinion doesn't matter now and never again

That's just plain arrogancy. If 50% of Germans see IDF similar to Nazis, well that's kind of weird. While many here say their opinions don't matter because they had the Nazis is almost as weird.

This is blaming someone for the mistakes someone else did. Yes, most of those people are dead now, and the opinionators in this polls didn't even live then.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:52 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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There are haunting similarities.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 08-12-2004 07:54
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Americans killing Indians wasn't comparable to the holocaust either, because we at least did it just through disease and military force, rather than lining them up and gassing them

 
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