08-12-2004 16:40									#61
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I wouldn't want to play it down, but I think there is a lot of exaggeration. If germans would remember the reality of the Nazi regime and it's extermination camps, nobody could really compare them to Nazis.
However the israel politics have pissed off quite a lot of people in Europe and this finds an expression somehow and somewhere.

I don't think that this is because of risen antisemitics (for me Jews, the religious, and Israel, the politics, are seperate entities).

	08-12-2004 17:58									#62
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The most striking similarity to nazism is the idea of increased Lebensraum.

	08-12-2004 18:06									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It was a ****ing analogy young man.

It was a ****ing stupid analogy.

	08-12-2004 19:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The most striking similarity to nazism is the idea of increased Lebensraum.

With the the very notable difference that Israel gained land because it was attacked, not because it was the aggressor. Much of that land has either been returned (Sinai, Gaza) or is in the process of negotiations for return or shared authority or at least reduced settlement (West Bank) .

	08-12-2004 19:41									#65
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The concept and idea of Eretz Israel predates the attacks against the modern state of Israel by it neighbours.

	08-12-2004 19:42									#66
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quote: Bullshit.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm

	08-12-2004 19:49									#67
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If there's a or or around there, I can't see it. I can't keep track of the position of all posters around here. Therefore I assumed your stupidiy.

	08-12-2004 19:59									#68
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This why you're supposed to read the context of a post (like say, two posts before it) before assuming that it's stupid.

	08-12-2004 20:03									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Exterminating 6 million in practically 5 years time isn't a blitz? No. The holocaust has basically nothing to do with actual warfare.

No, but the German Army had something to do with it. The first exterminations were carried out by soldiers. It was the disappointing results of this which led to the creation of the death camps.

While the IDF does carry out attricities, it's not on the level of the Nazis.

	08-12-2004 20:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by axi How is the treatment of Palestinians different from the treatment of Jews in the early period 1933-1936? In appearances and results it's virtually none. The only considerable differences are: 1. The sophistication of the propaganda methods, since a modern state needs to overcome the resistances of a much more educated public. 2. The disproportionality between the power and the real size of the nation of Israel in contrast to the Arabs, which makes Israelis much more wary of their own actions than were the Germans in Nazi Germany.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Have you ever read German laws from that period? Even before the hardcore racial laws, there was severe legal harrassment.
Have you ever read any paper or seen any Nazi-propaganda. From the very start, Jews not being humans but bugs and rats that have to be expelled if not exterminated. Those were the dominating images. Israeli propaganda isn't just "more sophisticated", it lacks those elements.
I'm not particularily known as a friend of Israel's politics, but this is hateful nonsense.

	08-12-2004 20:08									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by axi Υοu're more stubborn than a mule. Can't you grasp the meaning of a metaphore? Heck, even the use of the word "blitz" (lightning) in German to characterise warfare is a friggin metaphore! Except it's meaningless. There is no institutionalized slaughter of Palestinians. There is an open military conflict. No one considers people killed in bombing raids on Britain victims of the holocaust. It's a stupid comparison.

Consider how the Nazis acted in their occcupation of other countries with an active resistence. Both the Nazis and the IDF use collective punishment. The scale of Nazi reprisals was significantly different, however. Israel hasn't slaughtered a village since Kibya in revenge, unless we include the bombing of Sidon and Tyre and the destruction of a huge swath of Jenin. These days, instead of shooting ten men for every Israeli soldier killed (like the Nazis would do), the IDF simply drops bombs and missiles into crowds and the bildings of sleeping children.

	08-12-2004 20:09									#72
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Name an a attorcity and I will show you how it is bullshit.

	08-12-2004 20:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Have you ever read any paper or seen any Nazi-propaganda. From the very start, Jews not being humans but bugs and rats that have to be expelled if not exterminated. Those were the dominating images. Israeli propaganda isn't just "more sophisticated", it lacks those elements.

Actually, it does not. I went to a presentation about a decade ago on the remarkable similarity on Nazi depictions of the Jews in political cartoons and the Israeli depiction of Palestinians in political cartoons. Some of the very same images were used. I have seen Israel carttons of Palestinian "rats."

	08-12-2004 20:11									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Name an a attorcity and I will show you how it is bullshit.

Firing missiles into crowds.

Dropping bombs on sleeping children.

That's the big ones.

Then there's the system of terror under which the Palestinians live.

	08-12-2004 20:17									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Consider how the Nazis acted in their occcupation of other countries with an active resistence. Both the Nazis and the IDF use collective punishment. The scale of Nazi reprisals was significantly different, however. Israel hasn't slaughtered a village since Kibya in revenge, unless we include the bombing of Sidon and Tyre and the destruction of a huge swath of Jenin. These days, instead of shooting ten men for every Israeli soldier killed (like the Nazis would do), the IDF simply drops bombs and missiles into crowds and the bildings of sleeping children.

Name a time they've done so when there was no legitimate target being taken out.

	08-12-2004 20:18									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Americans killing Indians wasn't comparable to the holocaust either, because we at least did it just through disease and military force, rather than lining them up and gassing them

We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo. Life on the Rez was also quite brutal at first, and because the Bureau of Indian Affairs is so damned corrupt (still to this day), much of the food that was supposed to go to the Indians was either sold for the profit of Indian agents or was unfit for human consumption. By the end of the 19th Century, there were only about a quarter million Indians left. One hundred years eariler, there were an estimated three million.

	08-12-2004 20:19									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Name a time they've done so when there was no legitimate target being taken out.

So if I kill your whole family to get the criminal who lives next door to you, that's okay by you?

	08-12-2004 20:19									#78
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quote: We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo.

IIRC, that wasn't deliberately trying to kill the Indians, we just didn't care (in that case). It's still not industrialized murder.

I know atrocities were commited, but they were qualitatively different from the Holocaust.

	08-12-2004 20:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: We deliberately starved them to death by destroying the buffalo. IIRC, that wasn't deliberately trying to kill the Indians, we just didn't care (in that case). It's still not industrialized murder.

Yes it was. The military deliberately set out to destroy the buffalo herds, in addition to the civilian slaughter of buffalo. The military knew the plaines Indians depended on buffalo, and used it as a weapon to force them into reservations, by starving them.

quote: I know atrocities were commited, but they were qualitatively different from the Holocaust.

Some of them were, some of them weren't. We were trying to exterminate them, so on that level, we share a bond with the Germans. We actually set out to committ genocide, and like the Germans, we nearly succeeded.

	08-12-2004 20:25									#80
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quote: Yes it was. The military deliberately set out to destroy the buffalo herds, in addition to the civilian slaughter of buffalo. The military knew the plaines Indians depended on buffalo, and used it as a weapon to force them into reservations, by starving them.

I always read that it was to help the railroads, and that the Indians died, but no one cared.

quote: Some of them were, some of them weren't. We were trying to exterminate them, so on that level, we share a bond with the Germans. We actually set out to committ genocide, and like the Germans, we nearly succeeded.

Yes, but the stuff we did is pretty common, historically. What the Germans did is in its own category.

	08-12-2004 20:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I always read that it was to help the railroads, and that the Indians died, but no one cared.

Read some more.

quote: Yes, but the stuff we did is pretty common, historically. What the Germans did is in its own category.

If we ignore the Holocaust, what the Germans did was pretty normal, historically. For the most part, the Holocaust was carried out by special units, not Army regulars. At first they tried to use the regular Army, for example the massacre at Baba Yar. But the troops were affected by being forced to slaughter defenseless women and children, so they had to come up with a new method.

I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities.

	08-12-2004 20:33									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The 20% of the Israeli population who are arab which are citizens have no apparteid.

No, but they are third class citizens.

	08-12-2004 20:35									#83
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quote: If we ignore the Holocaust, what the Germans did was pretty normal, historically.

Own goal.

quote: For the most part, the Holocaust was carried out by special units, not Army regulars.

Own goal.

quote: At first they tried to use the regular Army, for example the massacre at Baba Yar. But the troops were affected by being forced to slaughter defenseless women and children, so they had to come up with a new method. I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities.

You've just pointed out how they're dissimilar.

	08-12-2004 20:44									#84
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Oh, the righteous idignation- how the thread drips of it.

Nazi as a term has been highly devalued- hence we have people always cal their opponents Nazi's (like Rush's "Feminazi"). I wonder if the question asked- dou think the IDF acts like one of the following.... and gave several choices, or said something like "do you compare IDF to Nazis" without choice. Makes a difference.

The only things this tells us is that Israel's position vis a vi the Palestinians is highly unpopular in Europe.

As for the Germans-and the notion that because they were the Nazis, they can't call anyone else Nazi's..actually, if anything it probably works the opposite-given how far the Germans went anti-nationalism and anti-patriotism and every other reaction to the nazi period, I would think them more likely to equate anything in the general vacinity of some of the types of violence carried by their predecessors as being like the Nazi.

	08-12-2004 20:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: I'm not saying IDF = Nazis. But there are similarities. You've just pointed out how they're dissimilar.

So you are now equating similarity with identity? So if something is similiar it must be identical?? Things that are similiar are also things which are dissimilar. If there were no dissimilarities, they would be identical.

A glass that is half filled with water is similar to a glass that is 90% filled with water. You, instead of seeing the glass and the presence of water, point to the great presense of air and proclaim, "THEY ARE TOTALY DIFFERENT!!!!"

	08-12-2004 20:53									#86
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Everything you mentioned in your post pointed out how they were different.

	08-12-2004 20:59									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Everything you mentioned in your post pointed out how they were different.

Because I don't want anyone to think I am suggesting they are the same, which, if I didn't say obviously, I know I would be attacked on. I had previously posted on how the two were similar (using collective punishment, indiscriminent killing of non-combatant civilians, the brutality of the occupation in daily life).

	08-12-2004 21:54									#88
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Perhaps we should stop playing with the meaning of words so much. Israelis and Palestininas do not exchange metaphores, in the very end, they exchange bullets and bombs.

What have we learned from all of this?

1. A large majority of the German (the European I might add) population does not like Israeli policy and is vocal about it.

2. The Israelis are pretty much indignant of the outcry, ergo they do not care much about what Europe says.

3. Albeit the rhetoric, no european government is ever going to do jackshit to counter Israel (push for real international intervention, apply sanctions, etc) and that's probably why the Israelis are not interested in their opinion.

4. It falls on the Americans who, until now are supporting Israel to decide if they care or not about the course of Israeli policy, given the outcry there is in Europe.

5. This means that, the people we should be asking about how much this comparison is touching them are neither the Europeans nor the Israelis, but the Americans.

6. Unfortunately the American public, never having had first hand experience of nazism, are the least capable in general of comparing the two cases.

	08-12-2004 22:07									#89
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quote: Originally posted by axi 6. Unfortunately the American public, never having had first hand experience of nazism, are the least capable in general of comparing the two cases.

Gee... that never has stopped the Europeans here from stating their opinions of American even though most have little or no first hand experience of it

	08-12-2004 22:14									#90
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opinions of American what?