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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
No, Gepap PZNZ NYE.
I don;t know, his attitude got to me. Plus, this is really the best piece on it I have seen on the net. |
Uhh, yeah right.
If you hadn't noticed, I was arguing with Che for the most part, largely over things he said, like
quote:
Depends on which state. Lebanon never attacked Israel. They simply occupied the portion of Galilee that was to be given to Palestine. Syria attacked Israel near the Sea of Galilee. They claimed that portion of Palestine based on French maps and an unresolved Anglo-French dispute. The Israelis managed to destroy one Syrian tank and the Syrian force turned around. |
Contrast that with
quote:
In the north, the Syrians crossed into Israel just south of the Sea of Galilee and captured Zemah, Sha’ar ha-Golan, and Massadah before being stopped at Degania. They retreated, regrouped, and launched another offensive a week later north of the Sea of Galilee. This time they captured Mishmar Hayardem, establishing a foothold on the Israeli side of the Jordan river, from which the IDF was unable to dislodge them. While the Syrians were fighting in the Jordan Valley, the Lebanese forces broke through the eastern gateway from Lebanon to Israel and captured Malkiya and Kadesh. IDF operations behind the lines and against villages inside Lebanon succeeded in halting the Lebanese offensive. By the end of May the IDF had recaptured Malkiya and Kadesh and forced the Lebanese army on the defensive. |
from what looks to be a fairly good piece that you linked.
Keep in mind though that the piece you linked does indicate the predicament that Israel was in during the initial battles.
quote:
...By the end of the first week in June a clear stalemate had developed on the central front and a similarly inconclusive situation prevailed on all the other fronts. The UN truce came into force on 11 June. To the Israelis it came, in Moshe Carmel's words, like dew from heaven. Though they had succeeded in halting the Arab invasion, their fighting forces were stretched to the limit and badly needed a respite to rest, reorganize, and train new recruits. On the Israeli side, the four weeks truce was also used to bring in large shipments of arms from abroad in contravention of the UN embargo--tanks, armored cars, artillery, and aircraft. On the Arab side, the truce was largely wasted. No serious preparations were made by any of the Arab countries to reorganize and re-equip their armies so that they would be better placed in the event of hostilities being resumed. The UN arms embargo applied in theory to all the combatants but in practice it hurt the Arabs and helped Israel because the Western powers observed it whereas the Soviet bloc did not. Consequently, the first truce was a turning-point in the history of the war. It witnessed a decisive shift in the balance of forces in favor of Israel. |
In other words, the Israelis were outgunned and were hard pressed to stop the initial invasion.The truce came and they used the time to gain an advantage in material over their Arab opponents. They pressed that advantage during later phases of the war.
Now, where does any of it say that Israel was not attacked at birth by 5 other nations? That is what started this off, btw.
TBH, I had never heard that the Israelis had a numrical advantage over the Arabs, so I learned something, sort of. However, to this point I still have not seen numbers to back that up. Also, I'd like to know how many Palestinian irregulars they had to contend with at the same time.
But whatever, if you wish to 'PZNZ' someone feel free to flatter yourself.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
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Weikpedia's account is very similiar to Gepap's for the first two phases but does not confirm his count on the numbers nor that Israel had larger forces.
quote:
First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948
Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.
The Arabs concentrated their efforts on cutting off roads to Jewish towns and Jewish neighborhoods in areas with mixed populations. The Arabs massacred several Jewish convoys, the most notable was the Hadassah medical convoy massacre in April. At the end of March, the Arabs completely cut off the vital road going from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem where one sixth of Palestine's Jews lived.
The Haganah armed itself with arms bought from Czechoslovakia. The Yishuv began working on a plan called Plan Dalet (or Plan D).
[edit]
Second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948
Jewish forces proved to be militarily stronger than the Arabs expected, and by May their forces were counterattacking Arab towns and villages, especially those controlling roads to isolated Jewish populations.
The road to Jerusalem was interdicted by Arab fighters located in the villages surrounding the road. The city of Jerusalem was under siege by the Arabs. Numerous convoys of trucks bringing food and other supplies to the besieged city were attacked. In Operation Nachshon, the Haganah continued its attacks on Arab fighters co-located with civilians, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem (April 20).
Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Palestinian civilians at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.
To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II), a make-shift winding road through the difficult mountains to Jerusalem. The Burma Road allowed the Jewish forces to relieve the Arab siege on June 9, just days before the United Nations negotiated a cease-fire. [1] (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_in..._war_course.php)
Meanwhile, frantic diplomatic activity took place between all parties. On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Zionists only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Zionists. Nevertheless, the Transjordanian army refrained from attacking the designated Jewish areas of Palestine in the ensuing war.
On May 13, the Arab League met and agreed to send regular troops into Palestine when the Mandate expired. Abdullah of Transjordan was named as the commander-in-chief of the Arab armies, but the various Arab armies remained largely uncoordinated throughout the war. |
The third phase it does give very clear numbers.
quote:
Third phase: May 15, 1948 - June 11, 1948
On May 14, the British Mandate expired. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.
Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.
On May 26, 1948, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) was officially established and the Haganah, Palmach and Etzel were dissolved into the army of the young Jewish state. |
So the Arab Armies had an over welling superiority in men. What about supplies and heavy equipment?
quote:
However, the Arab had clear superiority in heavy arms and firepower. The ordnance on May 15 were as follows:
Tanks: 1 w/o cannon to the IDF vs 40 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/ cannon): 2 to the IDF vs 200 to the Arabs.
Armored cars (w/o cannon): 120 to the IDF vs 300 to the Arabs.
Artillery: 5 to the IDF vs 140 to the Arabs.
AA and AT guns: 24 to the IDF vs 220 to the Arabs.
Warplanes: 0 to the IDF vs 74 to the Arabs.
Scout planes: 28 to the IDF vs 57 to the Arabs.
Navy (armed ships): 3 to the IDF vs 12 to the Arabs.
(Source: Yeuda Wallach, "Not on a silver plate")
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So even with Czech help the Arabs had vastly more heavy equipment as well as vastly larger Armies.
Last edited by Oerdin on 10-12-2004 at 09:50
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I think you are right- I am thinking of the Yellow triangle bordering Lebanon on the Map, but the Galilee area is closer to the lake. My bad. |
That's called West Galilee. You'll also note that almost every major battle took place outside the area designated to be Israel. Israel was on the offensive just as much as the Arabs were.
Oerdin, those numbers are way off.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 10-12-2004 at 09:46
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oerdin, those numbers are [i[way[/i] off. |
I've showen my source and the original Weikpedia drew the numbers from. What are you basing your force estimates on?
To clarify these are the manpower numbers and cover the second phase: April 1, 1948 - May 15, 1948
quote:
Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily. |
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Weikpedia's account is very similiar to Gepap's for the first two phases but does not confirm his count on the numbers nor that Israel had larger forces.
[q]...
The third phase it does give very clear numbers.
[q]
Third phase: May 15, 1948 - June 11, 1948
On May 14, the British Mandate expired. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries.
Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000. Both sides increased their manpower over the following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily.[q/]
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the problem with wik is... who wrote it? For general history of peaceful events, like Canada's Prime Ministers, it can be a good guide. However, when the issue is controversial and charged many grains of salt need be applied. Finding 'the truth' is difficult enough when dealing with professional historians who have bodies of work that can be looked at to establish biases and proclivities. It is next to impossible when the author is an anonymous muse on the internet.
The author of GePaps lengthy sites is a 'radical' among Jewish historians. His writing is very sympathetic to the 'other side'. Interstingly, one can witness a cat fight between him and the 'founder' of what Che calls the 'new' history on the Guardian.
Incidently, I read the bits you quoted. Did you miss the apparent contradiction in the final paragraph I quoted of your quote? I sum up over 100,000 Arabs. How could the Israeli 'advantage' grow when they didn't seem to have an advantage to begin with?
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
There he goes again...
Pray tell, how was Syria attacking outside the areas alotted to Israel when they didn't border any Palestinian ones? |
I never said Syria was. I said Syria was trying to take territory to which it laid claim based on French maps. Israel was given all of the Sea of Galilee and its shores. This is a major source of fresh water in the region, and Syria wanted some of it.
There are troop numbers on the map NYE provided, btw.
Lebanon: 2,000
Syria: 4,000
Iraq: 7,000
Arab Legion (Jordan): 5,000
Egypt: 11,000
Numbers are not given for the Arab Liberation Army, the Saudis, or Yemen.
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10-12-2004 03:05
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