10-12-2004 10:18									#181
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You and wiki share the same credibility on this topic?

Meh. At least I've tried to provide sources. It ain't like I'm pulling this outta my ass. You can disagree, but the hostility really needs to go.

	10-12-2004 10:18									#182
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GePap, summary?

	10-12-2004 10:19									#183
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The site I Link essentially puts the Israelis with a small superiority in numbers at the start of about 5000 men or so total. The difference is that Israeli forces increase over time with new recruits much faster than Arab forces, which grow much more slowly and never coordinate.

	10-12-2004 10:21									#184
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The next map in the series to which NYE linked gives a number of 3,100 in the ALA. It's October, and it still lists the Israelis as only having 20,000 troops, so I'm thinking the numbers for Israel aren't too accurate.

http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/we...%20map%2037.htm

	10-12-2004 10:22									#185
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An interesting tidbit from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rab-Israeli_war

	10-12-2004 10:30									#186
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Meh. At least I've tried to provide sources. It ain't like I'm pulling this outta my ass. You can disagree, but the hostility really needs to go.

It's not really hostility. It's mirth coloured by hockey. UR mistook it as well.

	10-12-2004 10:33									#187
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara An interesting tidbit from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rab-Israeli_war

That is interesting. It's not all black and white, is it?

btw, did you read what he said about his own conclusions?

	10-12-2004 10:39									#188
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That is interesting. It's not all black and white, is it? btw, did you read what he said about his own conclusions?

Yes and yes. I never said the Palestinians or Arabs were blameless. I'm just poijting out that the Israelis were far from innocent. I've actually been looking for a list like that for a long time, because I knew both sides committed attrocities, but I couldn't find anything beyond the massacre at Dier Yassin and the Lyddah death march.

As I noted previously, Morris has become thoroughly disgusted with the Palestinians due to the continuing violence. He doesn't think they want peace, which is certainly true for a significant section of them, but it's also true for people like Sharon. If there were no Palestinian threat, what would Likkud have to campaign on? The last thing about Morris I read was over a year ago, at which point he was still supporting his earlier work, even if he was dissociating with the New Israeli Historians.

	10-12-2004 10:41									#189
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There is no "innocent" nation anywhere in the world.

Show me a nation that has a history without any blemishes.

	10-12-2004 10:42									#190
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If there was no marijuana, what would the Marijuana Party campaign about? Is that a relevant question to ask when there is marijuana, and there is a Palestinian threat?

	10-12-2004 10:42									#191
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes and yes. I never said the Palestinians or Arabs were blameless. I'm just poijting out that the Israelis were far from innocent. I've actually been looking for a list like that for a long time, because I knew both sides committed attrocities, but I couldn't find anything beyond the massacre at Dier Yassin and the Lyddah death march. As I noted previously, Morris has become thoroughly disgusted with the Palestinians due to the continuing violence. He doesn't think they want peace, which is certainly true for a significant section of them, but it's also true for people like Sharon. If there were no Palestinian threat, what would Likkud have to campaign on? The last thing about Morris I read was over a year ago, at which point he was still supporting his earlier work, even if he was dissociating with the New Israeli Historians.

He seems to have a very pessimistic view of the eventual outcome. Emphasis on very.

	10-12-2004 10:48									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear If there was no marijuana, what would the Marijuana Party campaign about? Is that a relevant question to ask when there is marijuana, and there is a Palestinian threat?

It would be if the Marijuana Party were partly responsible for continuing marijuana prohibition. Likkud is a more than willing party to the war in Palestine, and on several occassions when things cooled down, they deliberately stirred up the pot.

	10-12-2004 10:48									#193
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Incidently, I think he thinks that if the Pals ceased to be a threat, Likud would never get a sniff of power. Israel is a democracy, but that doesn't mean Israelis are stupid. They want peace, but they maintain the stick in case it is required.

It would be really interesting if the Pals could change their own government to meet new conditions, instead of simply keeping on despots who continue with the rhetoric of burying Israel in the long run.

	10-12-2004 10:48									#194
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There is no "innocent" nation anywhere in the world. Show me a nation that has a history without any blemishes.

Canada.

	10-12-2004 10:48									#195
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither He seems to have a very pessimistic view of the eventual outcome. Emphasis on very.

That's a rational view to take.

	10-12-2004 10:48									#196
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither PS. Here's a map. http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/we...%20map%2036.htm

According to that map it was 29,000 Arab vs 20,000 Israelis not counting irregulars and the map shows a large part of the west bank held by Palestinian irregulars.

Even if we disbelieve weikpedia's numbers that still shows a 50% advantage for the Arabs in men.

	10-12-2004 10:49									#197
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We had that discussion already, Oerdin. Keep up, will you.

	10-12-2004 10:50									#198
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There is no "innocent" nation anywhere in the world. Show me a nation that has a history without any blemishes.

	10-12-2004 10:50									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Canada.

The Amerindians were treated worse in United States, but Canada does not have a CLEAN history in regards to Amerindians.



nice try, though

	10-12-2004 10:50									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Canada.

Nope. Sorry. We have a few warts buried in our past, and maybe a couple in the here and now.

	10-12-2004 10:51									#201
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara

nice stab at me




But seriously -- what is your point if there is no nation that is "innocent?"

	10-12-2004 10:53									#202
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But seriously -- what is your point if there is no nation that is "innocent?"

A lot of people think Israel is the exception, or that it's violatons were small and necessary. It's like Israel is to be free of all criticism. If you citicize Israel, you hate it, if you hate it, you hate the Jews, etc. If you're Jewish and you cricitize it, you're a self-hating Jew.

	10-12-2004 10:54									#203
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There has to be a nice little island nation where nothing much has happened.

	10-12-2004 10:54									#204
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A lot of people think Israel is the exception, or that it's violatons were small and necessary.

Well even though I sympathize with Israel more so than with Palestinians, I can agree with this bit of obvious common sense.

	10-12-2004 10:55									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There has to be a nice little island nation where nothing much has happened.

That would be Newfoundland, but we absorbed them.

	10-12-2004 10:55									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There has to be a nice little island nation where nothing much has happened.

Like one of the puny Pacific Islands?

	10-12-2004 10:56									#207
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Nah, some of the worst battles in WWII were fought there. Plus there's over-fishing, sweat shops, offshore banks, and horrid conditions for refugees.

	10-12-2004 10:57									#208
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Not on every single one of those islands, though.

	10-12-2004 10:58									#209
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But anyway, even though I sympathize with Israel, I certainly do not raise Israel on this pedestal of perfectibility. Israelites have made their own mistakes, and they have also deliberately carried out terrible decisions at expense of others.

	10-12-2004 11:01									#210
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A lot of people think Israel is the exception, or that it's violatons were small and necessary. It's like Israel is to be free of all criticism. If you citicize Israel, you hate it, if you hate it, you hate the Jews, etc. If you're Jewish and you cricitize it, you're a self-hating Jew.

I think that's a caricature, and it doesn't do the discourse any good.

Every time one of these brouhaha's starts up, we have to begin from the premises that Israel is evil from the one side, and Israel is less evil than currently depicted from the other.

It isn't a topic that hotheads on internet forums manage well.