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Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
Emperor
Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:17
  Old Post 10-12-2004 02:10 Visit Atahualpa's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
I don't understand why people are against a missisle defense system. Do you want the US to be defenseless against a missile attack? Do you want North Korea to nuke a US city?

No complex piece of technology will work the first time out. There will always be initials failures as we test and improve the technology. When we develop a new fighter jet, it takes years to perfect the technology. But shouldn't we try to have a system that can offer us some protection against a missile attack? Even if it only works half the time, that would be still be a 50% chance of saving millions of lives. Isn't that better that nothing?


warning... warning... warning

better than nothing argument detected

warning... warning... warning

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:17
  Old Post 10-12-2004 09:20
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What the Admiral said.

As I've argued in countless ABM threads, for many reasons, ICBMs are the least likely nuclear weapon delivery vehicle to be used against the US.

Container ships, fishing vessels, small planes and even trucks are superior in virtually every meaningful way, making them far greater threats than sophisticated, high-accuracy globe-circling rockets.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
time: 23:17
  Old Post 10-12-2004 10:43 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


The United States of Apolyton *would* send outs its ubermissiles (which, in tests, shoot down 105% of enemy missiles) however there are clouds outside. We ask that all enemies of Apolyton please hold until the weather changes.
To help best plan the attack, please go to weather.com and choose a nice, sunny day.


DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:17
  Old Post 15-12-2004 15:35
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A shocking, totally unexpected, wholly unforeseeable development:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...12/s1266063.htm

'Son of Star Wars' missile test fails

The first test in nearly two years of a planned multi-billion dollar United States anti-missile shield has failed, with the interceptor missile shutting down on its launch pad in the central Pacific before it was launched, the Pentagon said.

About 16 minutes earlier, a target missile carrying a mock warhead had been successfully launched from Kodiak Island, Alaska, the Pentagon's Missile Defence Agency said in a statement.

The aborted mission appeared likely to set back plans for activation of the rudimentary bulwark, known as "Son of Star Wars", against ballistic missiles that could be fired by countries like North Korea.

The system is a scaled-down version of a ballistic missile shield first outlined in March 1983 by President Ronald Reagan and derided by critics as "Star Wars".

In 2002, President George W. Bush pledged to have initial elements of the program up and running by the end of this year, although critics say that tests like the one on Wednesday failed to demonstrate any real-world capabilities.

"This is a serious setback for a program that had not attempted a flight
intercept test for two years," Philip Coyle, the Pentagon's chief weapons tester under Mr Reagan, said in an email exchange with Reuters.

The Missile Defence Agency said an unspecified "anomaly" had caused the interceptor to shut down automatically in its silo at the Kwajalein Test Range in the Marshall Islands.

The test had not been tied to the question of when to declare the system operational, said Richard Lehner, an agency spokesman.

"That's something that will have to be considered," he said.

Earlier this week the Missile Defence Agency postponed the test flight due to the failure of a radio transmitter.

It is not known what impact the failure will have on the Missile Defence Agency's plans for a fully-fledged intercept attempt next March or April.

In earlier tests, target missiles have been successfully intercepted in five out of eight attempts, but those have been under artificial conditions using some surrogate components.

Since the last test in December 2002, flight tests have been delayed or cancelled six times.

In December last year, Defence Minister Robert Hill announced that Australia would participate in the US missile defence program.

-Reuters


*********


Kimmy must be paralyzed with ...uh, not fear... erm ... laughter!

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 15-12-2004 17:15 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Five out of eight isn't that bad. Just hope they don't attack with nuclear warheads

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 15-12-2004 18:50 Visit Atahualpa's homepage!
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Engineers
Rocketry is now around for ~60 years and then it shuts down on the launch platform.

Humanity has really improved a lot!

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:17
  Old Post 15-12-2004 19:54
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Oops x2

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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Feb 2000
time: 23:17
  Old Post 15-12-2004 23:40 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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I suppose it will take another seven to 12 years to perfect anti-missile technology, at which point — and to our great dismay — it will be learned that new incoming warheads will be able to detect threats to their existence and take countermeasures, such as evasive maneuvers.

Gatekeeper

Hueij is offline Hueij
Emperor
Kokonino Kounty
May 1999
time: 06:17
  Old Post 15-12-2004 23:45
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Hey, it wasn't so bad... At least they got the target rocket up in the air

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
King
Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 15-12-2004 23:57
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Don't tell me the military uses Windows? That might explain the "anomaly".

Shogun Gunner is offline Shogun Gunner

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Oct 2000
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 01:11 Visit Shogun Gunner<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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This may be beating a dead horse...

In addition to the missile shield being useless against a terrorist nuke smuggled in any varieties of transportation modes (small plane, cuban refugee ship, container ship), wouldn't the shield also be useless against nuke tipped cruise missile? These can launched from subs right off the coast.

/beating dead horse

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
This may be beating a dead horse...

In addition to the missile shield being useless against a terrorist nuke smuggled in any varieties of transportation modes (small plane, cuban refugee ship, container ship), wouldn't the shield also be useless against nuke tipped cruise missile? These can launched from subs right off the coast.

/beating dead horse


If we have a missile defense system, then we will be able to devote more resources to protecting ourselves against small planes, ships and other nuke attacks because we won't have to worry so much about an ICBM.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 03:21 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
If we have a missile defense system, then we will be able to devote more resources to protecting ourselves against small planes, ships and other nuke attacks because we won't have to worry so much about an ICBM.


Arrian is offline Arrian
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Jul 2001
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 03:24
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ICBMs are not what we must worry about. We have the ultimate deterant : a shitload of our own ICBMs.



This made at least a modicum of sense during the Cold War arms race. It makes none now.

-Arrian

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 03:27 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I just want to know how spending billions on a buggy system will free up more resources to deal with other delivery platforms. I suppose now that everybody won't be spending 10 hours a day hiding under their beds they can get some work done.

Theben is offline Theben
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Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat

If we have a missile defense system, then we will be able to devote more resources to protecting ourselves against small planes, ships and other nuke attacks because we won't have to worry so much about an ICBM.


Worst. Reply. Ever.

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
We have the ultimate deterant : a shitload of our own ICBMs.


This won't work against Iran or NK.

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
King
Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I just want to know how spending billions on a buggy system will free up more resources to deal with other delivery platforms. I suppose now that everybody won't be spending 10 hours a day hiding under their beds they can get some work done.


Because it won't be buggy forever. Complex technology always requires a lot of trial and error. We'll fix the problems and we will get a NMD working. When that happens, we'll be safer against a small ICBM attack.

Just because terrorists might use a container ship or a small plane to get a nuke in, doesn't mean we should ignore the threat from ICBM's.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:20 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Too bad you still haven't responded substantively to my criticism of your post.

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Too bad you still haven't responded substantively to my criticism of your post.


Yes, I answered your post. You are correct that right now spending billions of dollars on developping a missile defense system will not free up resources to protect ourselves against a terrorist nuke. But in the long term, having a missile defense system will make us safer against an ICBM attack, allowing us to focus more on terrorist threats.

What you are suggesting, will help us prevent a terrorist nuke attack but it does nothing to protect ourselves from a ICBM threat.

My point is that we can do both. We are taking measures to protect ourselves against a terrorist nuke. Developing a missile defense will also help protect ourselves from ICBM.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:34 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
But in the long term, having a missile defense system will make us safer against an ICBM attack, allowing us to focus more on terrorist threats.


Dumbass post.

Unless you can explain what resources currently being used to guard against ICBM threats will be freed up to deal with terrorist threats you've not managed to respond to anybody's satisfaction.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 04:38 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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In other words what you're saying is equivalent to:

"While I know you think that guarding against terrorist threats is the most important thing you should be happy that we're spending billions of dollars on our anti-Martian system. Once the system is operational it will allow us to stop worrying about the imminent Martian invasion and focus on terrorism"

It's a red herring unless resources were already being spent on other anti-Martian devices.

Theben is offline Theben
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Jan 1970
time: 00:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 06:35
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You're also (diplomat) failing to realize, or acknowledge, that money used for better logistics, troops, and planning in Iraq would not only help combat terrorism, but potentially help reduce the threat of nutjobs with nukecases in the future.

Definite immediate benefits with foreseeable long-term ones, as opposed to unlikely long-term benefits only.

Decisions.

Theben is offline Theben
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time: 00:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 06:37
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Of course, it could also be a way to shift the debate from support Iraqi intervention/don't support, to supply troops/supply Star Wars II. Bush isn't that sneaky but his advisors are.

Seemed to work here, too.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 08:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
Don't tell me the military uses Windows? That might explain the "anomaly".


They do.

You should be scared now.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
Of course, it could also be a way to shift the debate from support Iraqi intervention/don't support, to supply troops/supply Star Wars II. Bush isn't that sneaky but his advisors are.


Don't you think the former debate was concluded some time ago?

Dis is offline Dis
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time: 21:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 09:38 Visit Dis's homepage!
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edit: you guys beat me to it

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:17
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Like most of you I am dismayed that so much money was spent on a largely untested system at a time when the US faces fewer ICBM threats than ever before.

However, since we are now stuck with this huge boondoggle regardless, I've been trying to think of scenarios in which it could serve it's purpose.

One idea that came to me was that a large islamic country would experience a viruently anti US revolution and gain access to ICBM's while under the leadership of islamic fundementalist wackos who would believe one successful missle strike on the US would unite the entire rest of the Islamic world against the US once the US retaliated by cratering the islamic revolutionary country.

Seems really unlikely to me but i suppose if it ever did happen the missle shield could be of some use.

Has anybody been able to come up with any other scenarios where the missle shield might make any difference?

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
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  Old Post 16-12-2004 10:26
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well, our system wouldn't work against the USSRs of the world

and not even the China's

I guess I we are just hoping it will work agains tthe North Koreas and Irans..

Jon Miller

Hurricane is offline Hurricane
Warlord
Arctic Hill
May 2001
time: 07:17
  Old Post 16-12-2004 15:27
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Maybe a spin-off of it could be a missile shield to protect the earth against comets on collision course. I read somewhere that there is a slight risk we might be hit in the next 100,000 years.

 
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