09-12-2004 20:33									#1
	AI Allies?????? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, I have been playing CivIII for a long time, and I absolutly love it. And call me a n00b if you soo desire, but is there NO AI ALLIES?!?!? I mean, in all my games, the one i am playing now is the most peaceful, so I am trying to gain some good allies to back me up if I come across some trouble. My past expirences with AI Alliances have proved poor, and from what I read from the wise leaders of Apolyton, there is not much hope for any type of Loyalty from the AI.

Maybe I dont fully know how to MAKE the Allies, or maybe AI Allies are just not available in Civ3. If they are not, does anyone know if there is or could be a Mod for more Loyalty?

I would be happy to hear what ya'll have to say! THANKS!

	09-12-2004 20:43									#2
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Yes, with Conquests you can create your own mod with locked alliances, like the WW II : Pacific and Napolonic conquests.

	09-12-2004 21:47									#3
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Allies?

just stomp everyone into submission

my point is the quality of the AI as allies is questionable at best. Amazingly SMAC was better at this I believe. They actually gave you units to help in your war. I thought that was just so cool. Something civ4 should have. It would help represent the lend-lease of ww2.

	10-12-2004 01:36									#4
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THANK YOU! Finally someone who thinks as i do! lol, SMAC was better! At least back then, when a nation hated another one, they REALLY MEANT IT! I mean, there was rarely those times when two nations would war for years and then turn around and join forces. I mean, in Civ3 I dont think that there is enough emphasis on alliances. I WISH we could transfer units! THAT was the greatest thing i thought. And as someone in another thread intelligently pointed out: "Giving resources to another civ is like giving resources to a future enemy." I agree completely, however i wish it were not so true. Where is the loyalty? Why do they constantly bit the hand that has fed them?

You guys rock! Thanks for the input!

	10-12-2004 05:15									#5
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yep, at least they should have system that if you are in the same goverment, they should be friendlier and not be so easy to declare war on you.

Sometimes I play with the settings (if you have conquest) on least aggressive. I find the AI too easily declares war on you.

	10-12-2004 10:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yep, at least they should have system that if you are in the same goverment, they should be friendlier and not be so easy to declare war on you.

They are a little friendlier, especially if it's their favorite government. It doesn't mean they're noticably less likely to declare war, unfortunately.

	10-12-2004 17:55									#7
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diplomacy is non existant in civ3-smac is so much fun in this regard.play civ3 for the more modern game and SMAC if you want more features

	10-12-2004 18:08									#8
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It all depends, I guess. If you know how, then you can use the AI quite well. But you'll need to actually keep yor deals, and you will usually need to have something to offer them. Oh, wait, isn't that what real life diplomacy is about?

The whole game model is different from that in SMAC, if you aven't noticed. In Civ, you don't have a couple thousand people and an outstanding leader, all in very difficult conditions. You have millions, with some sort of government. Why is it so difficultt to understand, that personal hatred doesn't rule this system? National security comes first, that's all (actually RNG does ). Yes, it flattens the diplomacy (I too like the one in SMAC better), but that's not a strange thing IMO.

	10-12-2004 20:37									#9
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so your saying lack of diplomacy=realism?countries are on freindly terms and alliances all over the place.as is now,MPP's are just 20 turn deals that simply prevent war.even with locked alliances,like in that tutorial scen,the ''allies'' treat you like trash

	10-12-2004 20:45									#10
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Well, to you it is lack of diplomacy. Sorry, but I disagree.

Personally, I greatly enjoy orchestrating AI actions with my diplomacy. You have to know what to trade, when and to whom (make them go to war, win or lose one - when you want it). You have to know with whom to ally and when.

And no, an alliance turning into a war is nothing strange to me. Does the name "Cold War" ring a bell? I'm saying, lack of everlasting vendettas and constant alliances = realism. It fits the Civ3 model.

	10-12-2004 20:57									#11
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Yeah, countries often act in their own interests and pay no more than lip service to their allies in RL.

	10-12-2004 20:57									#12
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they still go to war too easy. That's why I recommend playing on least aggressive setting.

	10-12-2004 20:58									#13
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I tend to think "least aggressive" generally makes the game easier on any level from Monarch to Diety.

	10-12-2004 21:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident they still go to war too easy. That's why I recommend playing on least aggressive setting.

Have you ever actually counted how many times an AI will go to war, if not enticed by you? I mean throughout it's entire history. Because, somehow, I think it would be far less aggressive than it's real counterpart. Brief review of medieval history shows more wars than an entire civ game can have. To me, the Civ3 world is an extremely peaceful place, by comparison.

	10-12-2004 21:10									#15
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Alright Modo, I would be very interested as to some of the specific ways in which you 'orchastrate' the AI through diplomacy, I would honestly be very interested on how you manipulate the computer so easily with such limited options available.
Thats one of the reasons I started the thread, I wanted people to give me some ideas as to how to do just that.
Thanks for the posts guys!

	10-12-2004 21:53									#16
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all the au 601 reports illustrated how to manipulate and control to AI as allies, against a human opponent. And in most cases, caused significant impacts.

	10-12-2004 21:59									#17
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There are limits to what you can do. If you become powerful enough, they will gang up on you and there is nothing you can do.

However, I try to plan 200-400 years out and make sure I'm buddied up with the right partner. I will trade, and if they don't trade with me, I'll gift to curry favor and bring a desired country into a more friendly arrangement. Sometimes I will make a ridiculous trade of a tech for a MPP then create a situtation where my next vicitim attacks me, thereby activating the alliance. If all goes well, I will procede to utterly destroy my enemy leaving nothing behind.

Then it's time to plan for my next vicitm.

For some situations this "investment" (the unbalanced trade or gifting) will be an investment well worth it. When you don't want all the nations of the world fighting you.

	10-12-2004 22:15									#18
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First of all, keep your reputation.

This is vital, because if you don't, some possibilities will not be available. Never ever break a deal. Don't cut a luxury, or resource (this includes engaging in a war with your neighbour, that could cut the supply line to someone else). Don't break an alliance, a ROP, or MPP. Never declare war with your units inside AI territory. If you sign peace, wait 21 turns before declaring war again. The F4 screen ("Details" view) is your friend.


Keep them at peace with you

Trade. Trade often and preferably for gpt, luxuries, resources, not for just cash. Sell technology, resources, luxuries, exchange maps. If they come asking for something, it's not because they like you, it's because they want it. And if they don't get it, they will try and take it (except if they are very intimidated by your power). Just like a human would, I might add. What to do? Sell it to them before they ask.

Be friendly all the time (until you stop and cut their throats, of course ). This means Embassies everywhere, as soon as available. And ROPs all the time, sometimes even if you have to pay a small amount to keep them going.


To war

The simplest way to make them go to war is signing an alliance. It will require some technology they consider advanced, and/or resources, and/or luxuries, and/or a pile of gold. And, of course, you will have to go to war as well... In other words, it is expensive. But effective.

Another one is a directed sale of technology. Make sure everyone has exactly the same technologies, then gift one tech to a rather small civ. Very often, the big guys will demand it soon, and the small one, feeling the new "power", will refuse - and mayhem is ensured. This however, can backfire (and it often does, I'm afraid ), if the small guy can use the tech to pull ahead, or just gets lucky. It's dangerous, but fun nonetheless.

Sometimes, signing embargos that involve two civs neighboring each other seems to be good for making them go to war. However, this is a possibility I haven't really explored.

Then, tere's the very ugly, very simple, and very dangrous MPP gamble. Simple: sign MPP with your future allies, declare war on someone, wait until they attack you in your own territory (this triggers the MPP). This can even be used to break an existing MPP, by enticing one of it's parts to attack you. Just remember, that they must attack an unit in your territiry first. The problem here: For 20 turns you'll be at war with different people, and you won't be able to contol it. Very unfun, unless you are ready to do it anyway.

Or, you can just wait. At some point, some AI will attack another, if aggression levels haven't been changed. Then you can join in, by signing an alliance (only if it doesn't break your reputation - if you still care...). The idea is, AI will often sign peace before the full 20 turns of an alliance are over, thus damaging it's (not your ) reputation. And with each reputation hit, they become more erratic and war-like. The idea is to make them break as many treaties as you can. After that, sit back an enjoy the overall mess.

Of course, waiting can bring an attack on you, instead of an AI-AI war. Well, this one is very simple, and most people will tell you: Sign alliances against the attacker, preferably with your neighbours. BUT, I will add this: Don't sign alliances with every civ you know. Leave some "untouched". After a couple turns the AI will start signing alliances against your enemy, or against your neighbours. Because alliances only count against a single civ, you will often be excluded, so you shouldn't find yourself at the receiving end. And, as said before, the more alliances (treaties), the more broken alliances (treaties) - making the AI-to-AI relations a perfect mess. This can often lead to a neverending world war, especially on huge maps! The AI reputation usually get's very low, so even small things will be enough to bring them to war. Be careful - this world war thing becomes unstoppable after a while, except if your military is vastly superior to the AI (and not even that helps in some situations).


While someone is at war, feel free to support the one that you think should win (or lose less than expected). Give them resources, luxuries, cash, technology, so they can fight back. Sometimes, your gifts can allow the civ you support to pay for an alliance, providing some more action (but you can't really control with whom they will ally). It doesn't always help enough, but it's usually possible to change the result to some extent, without becoming directly involved. The reason to keep one AI alive is, of course, to keep the other one from growing.


Shogun Gunner -> You are wrong. You can play a perfectly peaceful game, while being the main power. But it requires keeping all deals and good relations throughout the game. Most people can't help but break some. The gang against the strongest does not happen in Civ3, if you don't entice it to some degree.


[ edit - typos ]

Last edited by Modo44 on 10-12-2004 at 22:39

	10-12-2004 22:35									#19
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Well said, Modo.

	10-12-2004 22:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Shogun Gunner -> You are wrong. You can play a perfectly peaceful, while being the main power. But it requires keeping all deals and good relations throughout the game. Most people can't help but break some. The gang against the strongest does not happen in Civ3, if you don't entice it to some degree.

I know this was a problem in previous versions that was patched -- IIRC. However, there are times were your reputation gets tarnished despite doing nothing to break a trade agreement or violate a diplomatic agreement. Too many times foreign leaders say "...you can't be trusted...the way you treated the Greeks..."

I do concede that it's possible as you say to not get ganged up on. I'm currently in an epic game where the remaining four countries SHOULD gang up on me, but they aren't. I was lucky that a phantom betrayal on my part didn't occur.

Good post modo.

	10-12-2004 22:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I do concede that it's possible as you say to not get ganged up on. I'm currently in an epic game where the remaining four countries SHOULD gang up on me, but they aren't. I was lucky that a phantom betrayal on my part didn't occur.

In part, I agree. If the AI would consider victory conditions, they most definately should. It's obvious.

But I like the fact that they don't. The end-war that always occured in previous Civ games (including SMAC, IIRC), was really sad to watch, from a roleplaying perspective. I mean, there was usually no good reason to attack, it just happened out of the blue. Personally, I like the fact, that Civ3 allows a game to end peacefully.

	11-12-2004 00:12									#22
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you can end a SMAC game peacefully.its when yang slings a PB that things become ugly,as far as peace goes....certainly,if you enjoy civ3's diplomacy,thats great,but it just flat out bores me

really,if AI's had good\permenant alliances,and there was the equivilent of pacts,it would be great.the latest patch also disables the AI's capability to trade cities..

	11-12-2004 16:37									#23
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Not the 1.22 patch for Conquests. As the Iroquois I got the Incas to trade me one and then two cities in exchange for peace treaties. But strangely the Babylonians would become insulted when I tried to offer them a recently conquered Viking city. Never actually clicked to offer them that town though, but that's what the advisor said.

	11-12-2004 17:06									#24
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i have the 1.22 patch and even in the modern age offering all those juicy techs,10,000 gold and every city i cant even get a size 1 outta em.and the patch readme says it removes that,dosnt it? maybe they still will,but only for peace treaties

	11-12-2004 17:19									#25
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It's true, the AI won't sell cities. You can get them, but you need to win a war first.

Last edited by Modo44 on 11-12-2004 at 17:25

	11-12-2004 22:07									#26
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AI maniuplation is one of the most enjoyable aspects of this game for me.
You have to be careful with deals and timing, but with enough gold or techs, you can have a fine time of it. My favorite trick is having a buffer state declare war on a civ right as the SoD's are approaching my border and in the 3rd's territory.

	12-12-2004 01:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel My favorite trick is having a buffer state declare war on a civ right as the SoD's are approaching my border and in the 3rd's territory.

Deliciously evil!!!!!

	12-12-2004 05:41									#28
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I don't like unrealistic manipulation of the AI. so I can't say I do that much. Most of my diplomacy involves tech and luxury trades. or trades of strategic resources.

One thing I've noticed in my last game. I neglected to establish embassies until the modern age (very expensive on a large archipelago map). Because of this, I didn't have to be bothered by the stupid ai offerring me mutual protection acts/right of passage. I have mutual protection acts. They just get me into wars I don't want to fight.

	17-12-2004 07:10									#29
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Thanks alot guys, and Modo great post, this has been helpful, I guess I just want some sort of way of making sure that i have an allie or two laying around for the times I really need them. I wish the diplomacy was a tad more in depth so that we could some more things, but I am happy with what it does have. Although I have to agree with many before me by saying I miss the crap outa Unit Transfers and Surrenders too. I wouldnt mind to hear anymore thoughts from anyone about how to get and keep some good Allies around and how to use the Diplomacy to our advantage and all that jazz. THANKS ALOT!

	17-12-2004 18:38									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Deliciously evil!!!!!

a good tactic