10-12-2004 07:30									#31
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In my opinion the problem with the Democratic party won't be solved by swinging left or right. It's a regional problem, I'm not talking red state/blue states it's more of a rural/suburban/urban issue. The red states in general have more rural (including small towns/'cities') than the blue states.

IMO the Democrats are fully capable of winning a nation wide election, what they will have harder time doing is retaking the house and senate. The Democratic party for years was basically two parties who caucused together, they need to try to go back to that.

Oh and if we're talking about a left/right swing understand it would be a social swing not an economic one.

	10-12-2004 07:32									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We're not talking about becoming Republicans. We're talking about dumping gay marriage as a central issue. We're talking about demanding Republicans be punished for dumping our nation's children with the largest debt in history. We're talking maintaining a seporation of church and state without trying to expunge all public expressions of religion. We're talking about health care for all Americans. We're talking about spending on defense when it benifits soldiers but cutting the pork and waste which consumes so much of the defense budget. We're talking about pro-consumer laws and actually enforcing our current anti-trust laws. We're talking about spending more on things that matter to Americans like schools, student aid, roads and law enforcement but cutting wasteful spending like corporate & farm subsidies, Bush's missile defense system which fails even the meager tests its supporters rigged in its favor, we're talking about ending tax deductions which encourage American factories to close and move to China, and a dozen other things.

Hey, these are great ideas, but they are not the kind of ideas that the beltway Democrats are going to embrace. They have acquiesced to the Repugs time and again, I think you could appreciate the Dean approach of taking a tough stance on issues like these, and rebuilding our infastructure from the ground up.

	10-12-2004 07:35									#33
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quote: We've courted the center in four of the last four and a funny thing happened. When we had a candidate with a strong personality who had convincing centrist creditials we won (1992 & 1996). When we had candidates with weak personalities whom didn't have strong centrist credentials we almost won. The lesson here is have candidates with strong personal charisma and unimpeachable centrist records. That way Republicans can't tar them with the claim so and so is the "most liberal sentor in the entire sentate".

Bill Clinton was one the most charismatic men and probably the most effective politician in the last generation. He didn't win because he was a centrist, he won because he was Bill Clinton. Not cooincidentally, he also presided over some devestating Democratic losses in Congress.

	10-12-2004 07:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Lurching to the center is a disasterous approach for two reasons. One, it concedes that we were wrong all along on politically-left issues, the issues which should be our bread and butter, and two, everytime we lurch to the center, the Republicans just lurch further to the right.

No, we keep the core of liberal beliefs meaning every American gets a fair shake and the rich shouldn't get special privilages but we stop pandering to the extremists on the left. The people who want nothing less then gay marriage and instead we seek low key civil benifits which won't offend the 70% of voters. Currently 60% of Americans support civil benifits for gay couples but only around 25%-30% support out right gay marriage. This should be a no brainer.

Further, making the Republicans go further right is a VERY GOOD THING! That makes them the extremists and that pushes them further away from the majority of American voters.

	10-12-2004 07:37									#35
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Oerdins Ideas

	10-12-2004 07:38									#36
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No, it just moves the center further right. And extremists win. See the White House, see some of the Republican Senate victories (i.e. Oklahoma), etc.

	10-12-2004 07:41									#37
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Dean's speech, incidentally:

quote: Thank you for that introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. Let me tell you what my plan for this Party is: We're going to win in Mississippi ...and Alabama ...and Idaho ...and South Carolina. Four years ago, the President won 49 percent of the vote. The Republican Party treated it like it was a mandate, and we let them get away with it. Fifty one percent is not a mandate either. And this time we're not going to let them get away with it. Our challenge today is not to re-hash what has happened, but to look forward, to make the Democratic Party a 50-state party again, and, most importantly, to win. To win the White House and a majority in Congress, yes. But also to do the real work that will make these victories possible -- to put Democratic ideas and Democratic candidates in every office -- whether it be Secretary of State, supervisor of elections, county commissioner or school board member. Here in Washington, it seems that after every losing election, there's a consensus reached among decision-makers in the Democratic Party is that the way to win is to be more like Republicans. I suppose you could call that philosophy: if you didn't beat 'em, join them. I'm not one for making predictions -- but if we accept that philosophy this time around, another Democrat will be standing here in four years giving this same speech. we cannot win by being "Republican-lite." We've tried it; it doesn't work. The question is not whether we move left or right. It's not about our direction. What we need to start focusing on... is the destination. There are some practical elements to the destination. The destination of the Democratic Party requires that it be financially viable, able to raise money not only from big donors but small contributors, not only through dinners and telephone solicitations and direct mail, but also through the Internet and person-to-person outreach. The destination of the Democratic Party means making it a party that can communicate with its supporters and with all Americans. Politics is at its best when we create and inspire a sense of community. The tools that were pioneered in my campaign -- like blogs, and meetups, and streaming video -- are just a start. We must use all of the power and potential of technology as part of an aggressive outreach to meet and include voters, to work with the state parties, and to influence media coverage. The most practical destination is winning elective office. And we must do that at every level of government. The way we will rebuild the Democratic Party is not from consultants down, but from the ground up. We have some successes to build on. We raised more money than the RNC, and we did so by attracting thousands of new small donors. This is the first time in my memory that the DNC is not coming out of a national campaign in debt. We trained tens of thousands of new activists. We put together the most sophisticated get-out-the-vote operation our Party has ever had. We registered millions of new voters, including a record number of minority and young voters. And we saw those new voters overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Now we need to build on our successes while transforming the Democratic Party into a grassroots organization that can win in 50 states. I have seen all the doomsday predictions that the Democratic Party could shrink to become a regional Party. A Party of the Northeast and the Pacific Northwest. We cannot be a Party that seeks the presidency by running an 18-state campaign. We cannot be a party that cedes a single state, a single District, a single precinct, nor should we cede a single voter. As many of the candidates supported by my organization Democracy for America showed -- people in places that we've too long ignored are hungry for an alternative; they're hungry for new ideas and new candidates, and they're willing to elect Democrats. Since we started Dean for America last March, we raised over $5 million, mostly from small donors. That money was given to 748 candidates in 46 states and at every level of government. We helped a Democratic governor get elected in Montana and a Democratic mayor get elected in Salt Lake County, Utah. We helped Lori Saldana in San Diego. Lori, a Latina grassroots environmental organizer was outspent in both the primary and the general, won a seat on the state assembly. We also helped Anita Kelly become the first African-American woman elected to her circuit court in Montgomery Alabama. Fifteen of the candidates who we helped win last month never ran for elective office before. And in Texas, a little known candidate who had been written off completely ran the first competitive race against Tom Delay in over a decade. There are no red states or blue states, just American states. And if we can compete at all levels and in the most conservative parts of the country, we can win ... at any level and anywhere. People will vote for Democratic candidates in Texas, and Alabama, and Utah if we knock on their door, introduce ourselves, and tell them what we believe. There is another destination beyond strong finances, outreach, and campaigns. That destination is a better, stronger, smarter, safer, healthier America. An America where we don't turn our back on our own people. That's the America we can only build with conviction. When some people say we should change direction, in essence they are arguing that our basic or guiding principles can be altered or modified. They can't. On issue after issue, we are where the majority of the American people are. What I want to know is at what point did it become a radical notion to stand up for what we believe? Over fifty years ago, Harry Truman said, "We are not going to get anywhere by trimming or appeasing. And we don't need to try it." Yet here we are still making the same mistakes. Let me tell you something: there's only one thing Republican power brokers want more than for us to lurch to the left -- and that's for us to lurch to the right. What they fear most is that we may really begin fighting for what we believe -- the fiscally responsible, socially progressive values for which Democrats have always stood and fought. I'll give this to Republicans. They know the America they want. They want a government so small that, in the words of one prominent Republican, it can be drowned in a bathtub. They want a government that runs big deficits, but is small enough to fit into your bedroom. They want a government that is of, by, and for their special interest friends. They want a government that preaches compassion but practices division. They want wealth rewarded over work. And they are willing to use any means to get there. In going from record surpluses to record deficits, the Republican Party has relinquished the mantle of fiscal responsibility. And now they're talking about borrowing another $2 trillion to take benefits away from our Senior Citizens. In going from record job creation to record job loss, they have abandoned the mantle of economic responsibility. In cutting health care, education, and community policing programs... and in failing to invest in America's inner cities, or distressed rural communities... they certainly have no desire to even claim the mantle of social responsibility. In their refusal to embrace real electoral reform or conduct the business in government in the light of day, they are hardly the model of civic responsibility. In their willingness to change the rules so that their indicted leaders can stay in power, they have even given up any claim on personal responsibility. And in starting an international conflict based on misleading information, I believe they have abdicated America's moral responsibility, as well. There is a Party of fiscal responsibility... economic responsibility.... social responsibility... civic responsibility... personal responsibility... and moral responsibility. It's the Democratic Party. We need to be able to say strongly, firmly, and proudly what we believe. Because we are what we believe. And we believe every person in America should have access to affordable health care. It is wrong that we remain the only industrialized nation in the world that does not assure health care for all of its citizens. We believe the path to a better future goes directly through our public schools. I have nothing against private schools, parochial schools and home schooling. Parents with the means and inclination should choose whatever they believe is best for their children. But those choices must never come at the expense of what has been -- and must always be -- the great equalizer in our society -- public education. We believe that if you put in a lifetime of work, you have earned a retirement of dignity -- not one that is put at risk by your government or unethical business practices. The first time our nation balanced its budget, it was Andrew Jackson, father of the Democratic Party, who did it. The last time our nation balanced its budget, it was Bill Clinton who did it. I did it every year as Governor. Democrats believe in fiscal responsibility and we're the only ones who have delivered it. We believe that every single American has a voice and that it should be heard in the halls of power everyday. And it most certainly must be heard on Election Day. Democracies around the world look to us as a model. How can we be worthy of their aspirations when we haven't done enough to guarantee accurate elections for our own citizens. We believe in a strong and secure America... And we believe we will be stronger by having a moral foreign policy. We need to embrace real political reform -- because only real reform will pry government from the grasp of the special interests who have made a mockery of reform and progress for far too long. The pundits have said that this election was decided on the issue of moral values. I don't believe that. It is a moral value to provide health care. It is a moral value to educate our young people. The sense of community that comes from full participation in our Democracy is a moral value. Honesty is a moral value. If this election had been decided on moral values, Democrats would have won. It is time for the Democratic Party to start framing the debate. We have to learn to punch our way off the ropes. We have to set the agenda. We should not hesitate to call for reform -- reform in elections, reform in health care and education, reforms that promote ethical business practices. And, yes, we need to talk about some internal reform in the Democratic Party as well, and I'll be discussing that more specifically in the days ahead. Reform is the hallmark of a strong Democratic Party. Those who stand in the way of reform cannot be the focus of our attention for only four months out of every four years. Reform is a daily battle. And we must pursue those reforms with conviction -- every day, at all levels, in 50 states. A little while back, at a fundraiser, a woman came up to me. She identified herself as an evangelical Christian from Texas. I asked her what you are all wondering -- why was she supporting me. She said there were two reasons. The first was that she had a child who had poly-cystic kidney disease, and that the illness made it impossible for their family to get health care. The second thing she said was, "The other reason we're with you is because evangelical Christians are people of deep conviction, and you're a person of deep conviction. I may not agree with you on everything, but what we want more than anything else from our government is that when something happens to our family or something happens to our country -- it's that the people in office have deep conviction." We are what we believe. And the American people know it. And I believe that over the next two... four... ten years... Election by election... State by state... Precinct by precinct... Door by door... Vote by vote... We're going to lift our Party up... And we're going to take this country back for the people who built it.

	10-12-2004 08:11									#38
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So basically Dean is saying become more centrist while never admiting you are becoming more centrist. Ok, I can go along with that.

	10-12-2004 08:15									#39
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It's not really about going left or right in any traditional sense, it's about reform.

	10-12-2004 08:20									#40
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Muhahahahahaha!

It is just way to easy.

	10-12-2004 08:21									#41
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I disagree with Democrats having to completely abandon issues concerning gays. The Democratic Party could find an effective way to refute the Republicans' ridiculous claim that they monopolize so-called "moral values" without pandering to homophobia.

	10-12-2004 08:23									#42
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quote: Not cooincidentally, he also presided over some devestating Democratic losses in Congress.

That was a result of Clinton's more lefty policies from 1993-94. The Republicans won BIG in 1994 by hyping "Hillary's Socialist Health Care Plan".

	10-12-2004 08:25									#43
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The religous people in this country aren't going to change their views on this Mr Fun. We can reach out to the people who aren't blinded by hate by soothing them and telling them we don't want to change things very much. We quietly go for civil benifits instead of in your face confrontation because in an open fight gays lose.

	10-12-2004 08:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The religous people in this country aren't going to change their views on this Mr Fun. We can reach out to the people who aren't blinded by hate by soothing them and telling them we don't want to change things very much. We quietly go for civil benifits instead of in your face confrontation because in an open fight gays lose.

Fortunately, I agree with you that the more militant activists among gays too often do more harm than good.


But I believe you can still find reasonable ways to advocate for full protection of gay marriage under the same laws as heterosexual marriage.

	10-12-2004 08:33									#45
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quote: That was a result of Clinton's more lefty policies from 1993-94. The Republicans won BIG in 1994 by hyping "Hillary's Socialist Health Care Plan".

Basically, he failed to define his agenda, so the Republicans defined it for him. It's the basic problem that the Democrats have had for the past 30 years, they don't attempt to persuade, that they don't articulate a moral basis for their agenda, and just have a laundry list of policies.

	10-12-2004 08:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: That was a result of Clinton's more lefty policies from 1993-94. The Republicans won BIG in 1994 by hyping "Hillary's Socialist Health Care Plan". Basically, he failed to define his agenda, so the Republicans defined it for him. It's the basic problem that the Democrats have had for the past 30 years, they don't attempt to persuade, that they don't articulate a moral basis for their agenda, and just have a laundry list of policies.

Exactly. The very fact that they could get away with calling it socialism is the proof of that.

This, of course, is why there continues to be such fondness for JFK, in spite of the fact that he was a crap president -- he was the last successful Democrat who actually articulated a vision.

It's also why Barak Obama is such a fast-rising star...

	10-12-2004 11:23									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin but we stop pandering to the extremists on the left.

When have you ever panded to us?

	10-12-2004 11:26									#48
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Gay marriage is an often cited example. I'd say there are probably more examples in the enviromental laws.

	10-12-2004 11:26									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Agreed. It's more like the thing birds do to statues.

	10-12-2004 11:33									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Gay marriage is an often cited example. I'd say there are probably more examples in the enviromental laws.

And wrongly so, since the Dems ran away from that issue as fast as their legs would take them. Which of the candiadates supported gay marriage? It wasn't Kerry, that's for sure. I don't know who you think supported gay marriage, but it wasn't the Democrats. As for environmental laws, the vast majority of Amerians support stricter environmental laws than even the Dems are willing to put forward.

So try again. When have you ever pandered to us? Hell, all you do is take us for granted and assume we'll vote for you because we have no where else to go.

	10-12-2004 12:29									#51
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You say centrist politics don't excite the base. Well, this year the base was wildly excited due to Bush hatred, and they still lost.

I doubt it's a coincidence that since LBJ's landslide way back in 1964, the only two democrats to win the whitehouse were Southern Centrists.

	10-12-2004 13:16									#52
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It's possible that taking a centrist approach might win a presidential election here or there, but overall the centrist track record is quite poor. Look at Dukakis, Mondale, Gore and Kerry, all centrists to one degree or another. Most of were which candidates who pundits claimed "took their party back from the left".

Moreover, the only way to secure long-term success is to steal a page from the Republican's fight book and build up unique ideas and values from the ground up. Create a strong "farm system" on the local and state level, and have well-defined ideas, and work on framing those into the national debate.

Always just taking the "center" on whatever is fashionable that year will not bring long-term success, and will only push the center further and further to the right.

	10-12-2004 13:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I disagree with Democrats having to completely abandon issues concerning gays. The Democratic Party could find an effective way to refute the Republicans' ridiculous claim that they monopolize so-called "moral values" without pandering to homophobia.

Gays are heading into the same boat African Americans are in -- blind allegiance to a single party. The result will be that both parties ignore you, because the one knows it's pointless to try to win you over, and the other knows you'll never leave.

	10-12-2004 17:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider It's possible that taking a centrist approach might win a presidential election here or there, but overall the centrist track record is quite poor. Look at Dukakis, Mondale, Gore and Kerry, all centrists to one degree or another. Most of were which candidates who pundits claimed "took their party back from the left".

Dukakis, Kerry & Mondale were moderates in Massachussets and Minnesota respectively, but they were liberals in a national race. Mondale ran against a very popular and effective politician and lost big. Kerry, Gore and Dukakis ran against very weak / vulnerable politicians and barely lost. What probably killed them was their extremely wooden personalities and running poor campaigns. But the Dems can't simply hope that the Republicans will keep nominating Bush's so that they can run close. They have to nominate candidates who can compete with decent Republican candidates.

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Moreover, the only way to secure long-term success is to steal a page from the Republican's fight book and build up unique ideas and values from the ground up. Create a strong "farm system" on the local and state level, and have well-defined ideas, and work on framing those into the national debate.

A good idea, and I think they are already getting started on it which is good. It will probably take about a generation to come to fruition though.

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Always just taking the "center" on whatever is fashionable that year will not bring long-term success, and will only push the center further and further to the right.

You give to much credit to the ability of the parties to frame the issues and the debate in general. People will punish either party for straying too far from the center by simply depriving them of the votes to wield any power whatsoever. The people are the ones who make the changes in what the politicians argue about despite the best efforts of the politicians to set the terms of the debate. What the politicians do is to choose from amongst the issues in order to build a winning coalition of issues.

When one party is extremely dominant they can more successfully give short shrift to the electorate and use their visibility, money and power to win elections. But every time they do so they stray farther from building the strongest coalition, and when it bites them the momentum can swing the other way for a long time. The populace moves more slowly than the politicians, but much more inexorably. What I've witnessed over the past 30 years or so is a long march to the right which IMO has already peaked. The Republicans have benefited from this immensely and have completely turned the tables on the Democrats. If they overreach (and some think that they have) then their time in power will be short lived.

	10-12-2004 18:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Dean's speech, incidentally: quote: Thank you for that introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. Let me tell you what my plan for this Party is: We're going to win in Mississippi

Democrats can and do win here. Even in statewide office. Usually by seperating themselves from the national party. I fail to see how Dean could help that. I only see him hurting the Dems here.

	10-12-2004 18:25									#56
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You're claiming Dukakis & Mondale were CENTRISTS!


Ho! Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh, stop... I can't breath...

	10-12-2004 18:27									#57
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Always just taking the "center" on whatever is fashionable that year will not bring long-term success, and will only push the center further and further to the right.

MS, that's just plain unintelligent. The majority of the American people know what they like and what they don't like. We campaign on our core values and we try to convince people our values are right but we stay squarely where the majority of Americans are on the issues. To say that pushes the center right just doesn't add up.

	10-12-2004 18:29									#58
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I'm still trying to figure out how Mondale was a centrist. Someone help me with that one

	10-12-2004 18:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So try again. When have you ever pandered to us? Hell, all you do is take us for granted and assume we'll vote for you because we have no where else to go.

Che: You know you are only the loony commie fringe so no one will play to you. No one is trying to play to the radical left I'm talking about the far left which still has some measure of popular support.

	10-12-2004 18:32									#60
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Gore was a decent centrist but Kerry was a born again centrist just for the election. He just didn't have very deep centrist rootes and he had a decades long voting record which showed him to be a liberal. Republicans pounced on that and they tarred and feathered him based upon his voting record.

Add on the fact that both Gore and Kerry had about as much personality as card board and you see why they lost. Gore could have easily won if he wasn't such a dry and boring stiff neck.