12-12-2004 02:20									#121
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe and an almost slavishly devoted press. The fact that they still lost says more volumes than anything else.

I just didn't see any slavishly devoted press other then Fox's nightly "Kerry is evil and wants gays to have sex with you" routine.

That's paraphrased of course.

	12-12-2004 07:27									#122
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ask Obama how he appeals to rural people in Illinois.

MMmmmmMMmmm, Obama. He's bright, articulate and has the best self-effacing sense of humor since President Kennedy.

Growing tired of being asked if he's running for President in 2008 (before he's even been sworn in as
senator), Obama gave a speech in which he said [and I'm paraphrasing]: My career in the Senate has been so successful, there's really nothing left for me to do but to announce my retirement. But I'll always be proud of having received 70% of the vote in Illinois and 102% of the vote in Chicago.

	12-12-2004 07:56									#123
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Ask Obama how he appeals to rural people in Illinois.

Facing an opponent as week as Keyes helps.

quote: It's also misleading to look a "blue states and red states." The real dividing line is blue counties and red counties. Last election, of the U.S.'s 3,000 counties, Bush won 2,500 and the Dems won 500. But the Dems do well in the cities; the Reps do well in the country, so the total numbers of votes in each are about the same. The Dems need to get more "countrified" ... but I'm not sure how we do that.

That's true to a large extent, but not completely so. For Instance, in Arizona, Bush won Maricopa county which has Pheonix, a huge city in it. In Pennsylvania, Kerry won rural Washington, Beaver, and Fayette counties(though he lost some rural counties the Democrats had traditionnaly held this election cycle)

quote: 've been advocating the Dems concentrate on their issues that are important to White working class voters (55% of the electorate), sometimes known as "Reagan Democrats:" (a) an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, (b) quality public education, (c) affordable health care, (d) secure retirement and (e) a clean environment.

Well b is less important and e is much less important, but keep in mind Kerry focuse on all of those things and hit Bush hard on his record, and was not able to prevail.

If I were a consultant for the Democrats, I'd really want to reccomend moving towards the center on social issues. In particular they really ought give up trying to get federal gun control. Right now the Democrats are in serious danger of losing the Rust Belt, and becoming more moderate socially would also be helpful in trying to swing the socially conservative southwest if that is where they want to expand their map.

	12-12-2004 08:09									#124
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I also believe that national gun control is stupid politics. Locally, it may not be so stupid (even if I generally disagree with it). For reasons I can't fathom, a lot of people are care a lot about gun control, and those people generally oppose it. It's an issue that kills Democrats in the South and (more importantly) the West. Incidentally, Dean opposes gun control.

	12-12-2004 08:15									#125
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Gun control is an example of urban/rural differences.

If I was out in the countryside with wild animals loping past and with the nearest law enforcement an hour or two away, I'd want a gun for protection.

In the city, guns are usually used by drunken owners when the neighbor plays his stereo too loud one too many times.

	12-12-2004 11:57									#126
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We're not talking about becoming Republicans. We're talking about dumping gay marriage as a central issue.

Wait...it was the Republicans who made gay marriage a focal point, not the Democrats. Hell, the Democrats couldn't have said any less about it. How could they dump it any more?

quote: We're talking about demanding Republicans be punished for dumping our nation's children with the largest debt in history.

The Democrats did this.

quote: We're talking maintaining a seporation of church and state without trying to expunge all public expressions of religion.

Which Democrats tried to expunge all public expressions of religion? Surely it wasn't Kerry, who talked about God a lot, or the Rev. Sharpton?

quote: We're talking about health care for all Americans.

Again, already been talked about.

All of what you said, in fact, were things the Democrats mentioned.

But the failure was because while talking about that stuff, they continued to rely on weasely hacks like McAuliffe and Daschle to be the standard bearers for the party. The "centrist" movement in the DNC is gutless pandering.

The Democrats are a populist party and that's where they need to remain. Dean is spot-on about that count.

The problem with the last two elections is that neither candidate were convincingly populist. Gore and Kerry are solidly DLC, which ain't populist by any means. So the "people, not the powerful" mantra rings a bit hollow with them. That's what made Clinton different, as he could genuinely be a populist, having grown up in poverty and made his own career without the help of wealth and a great family name.

If you're going to run as a populist, you'd better really be a populist. And someone who can do that will win.

	12-12-2004 12:35									#127
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler If I was out in the countryside with wild animals loping past and with the nearest law enforcement an hour or two away, I'd want a gun for protection.

I live in a rural area, and about the biggest wild things we've got running loose around here are jackrabbits, some badgers, gophers, the occasional prairie dog colony and coyotes. All generally known for *not* attacking humans just for the hell of it, much less to eat them.

Mountain lions are starting to show up a bit more often, though. They generally avoid populated areas, though, although a woman had one sleeping on a tree branch in her back yard earlier this year.

The main reason rural areas have weapons is for hunting. Ducks, geese, deer, pheasants ... that sort of thing. The last time I checked, gun control laws don't affect those sorts of weapons. Heh. Every once in a while we get a story where there's a loner sitting on a stockpile of guns and ammo on his/her farm and has a warrant out for his/her arrest ... that always gets the local SWAT teams worked up (for obvious reasons).

If anything, I'd think folks in urban areas would be more keen on having weapons, and not just ones meant for hunting game wildlife. After all, humans, as sad as it is, pose more of threat to each other than most of nature does.

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