13-12-2004 11:36									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker ...They did alot of talking to and about God and their belief in god(s) is why most of the world believes in god(s) now. So if you want proof that God exists, read what those earlier peoples wrote about God. That is the illogic of atheism, it discounts god without a serious investigation and does so by picking apart the easily refutable beliefs of religious nuts or the power hungry employing religion.

Which is more likely:

(a) That the testimony is true.

or

(b) That the accounts were made up by people for various reasons, or the people who "saw" these things were suffering from a mental illness.

The sheer amount of evidence makes the second more likely. Compare:

(c) Bush orchestrated 9/11.

and:

(d) A small group of Islamist terrorists did it on their own.

To believe (c) you have to revise massive numbers of beliefs, to believe (d) you don't.

It is always rational to choose what would be the "lesser miracle:.

	13-12-2004 11:53									#182
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Not if you allow yourself to retroactively choose the myths that fit your theory...
Choose a theory , find a myth that says the same thing (not hard with so many to choose from) et voila, God in the Ancients
That does reduce somewhat prediction power, and you have to change your theory completly every year but at least, the Ancients (or some of them) were right!!

	13-12-2004 13:12									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Sum over histories

ARGH!

Kill!!

	13-12-2004 14:52									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Look at my thread on Saturn and Pluto.

Which offers what unambiguous proof of 'god' ?

None, so far as anyone with a sense of humour can tell.

	13-12-2004 20:59									#185
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quote: Space-time isn't in another space-time

Is too!

quote: You measure the curvature by measuring the angles and side lengths of triangles

Which requires lengths in the first place. Do you understand the meaning of the word "infinite" or "infinitesimal"?

quote: You're babbling incoherently.

Am not!

quote: Look at my thread on Saturn and Pluto.

quote: That is the illogic of atheism, it discounts god without a serious investigation and does so by picking apart the easily refutable beliefs of religious nuts or the power hungry employing religion.

What? Atheism is not simply non-Christianity or non-monotheism, it is the view that "the" doesn't exist, whether it be monotheism or polytheism. That's why of course you'll find trancendentral or existentialist atheists, and you provide no evidence to the contrary, rather than your own bitter little view of things. I somehow doubt that you have solved for us a millenia-old philosophical question .

quote: They did alot of talking to and about God and their belief in god(s) is why most of the world believes in god(s) now.

Most of the world believes in God now because of the British and Spanish empires. I'm thinking your figures are just numbers plucked out of the air though. For the vast majority of human existence, the religion as it were (so is thought) is based more around ones own ancestors and does not hold a "the".

quote: (a) That the testimony is true.

Good point! Of course not, simply because they are dead or numerous does not validate their position.

quote: ARGH! Kill!!

	13-12-2004 21:01									#186
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You are babbling more incoherently than he is.

	13-12-2004 23:04									#187
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Silence heathen

	14-12-2004 08:21									#188
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I think Flew forgot something basic.

quote: At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew (search) has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

That is, what created this super-intelligence?

	14-12-2004 12:25									#189
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well, there is always the theory that we did

Jon Miller
(not a follower of that theory, but it seems to be popular in humanistic deist circles)

	14-12-2004 12:52									#190
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quote: But isn't the onus of proof on those who wish to prove something that is not empircally obvious? I may believe there is a higher being, but I don't think it can be proven in any way. Simply because people in the past believed it isn't proof to me.

But atheists ignore the proof and point to matters of faith or butchered interpretations of religious scripture to dismiss God. I was in that boat myself and then decided to do some research on my own.

UR

quote: Did you count the Chinese, the Hindus, whole mess of people who lived and died in South America and Africa, etc? So how did you come up with the 90% figure?

A conservative estimate based on how pervasive religion is.

quote: Besides, the same argument can be applied to interesting ideas such as Spontaneous Generation and Phlogistons.

90+% believe in those?

quote: Even if it is shown that ancient peoples had knowledge beyond their abilities it did not indicate there were a god.

It does when those same people claim gods gave them the knowledge.

quote: The contradictions of various myths and legends effectively rule out anything "real" behind them. For example, the Greeks had it that Prometheus gave fire to man, but the Chinese had it that it was a man who discovered fire.

These were different cultures with different culture bearers, e.g., no Achilles in China. When creation stories from all over the world agree on certain aspects, and those certain aspects are compatable with science, then that raises a question: how did they know?

Aggie

quote: Which is more likely: (a) That the testimony is true. or (b) That the accounts were made up by people for various reasons, or the people who "saw" these things were suffering from a mental illness. The sheer amount of evidence makes the second more likely. Compare: (c) Bush orchestrated 9/11. and: (d) A small group of Islamist terrorists did it on their own. To believe (c) you have to revise massive numbers of beliefs, to believe (d) you don't. It is always rational to choose what would be the "lesser miracle:

There's a third option, some myths are based on or describe actual events but often told using the language of metaphor.

Whaleboy

quote: What? Atheism is not simply non-Christianity or non-monotheism, it is the view that "the" doesn't exist, whether it be monotheism or polytheism. That's why of course you'll find trancendentral or existentialist atheists, and you provide no evidence to the contrary, rather than your own bitter little view of things. I somehow doubt that you have solved for us a millenia-old philosophical question .

Jesus H Christ, so I didn't add an (s) to "god" and you have to go on a rant? Most people here can figure out "god" can mean any and all gods when debating atheism vs religion.

	14-12-2004 12:52									#191
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You can't prove god. So what proof do atheists ignore when none really exists?

	14-12-2004 13:33									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But atheists ignore the proof and point to matters of faith or butchered interpretations of religious scripture to dismiss God. I was in that boat myself and then decided to do some research on my own.

Just in case you don't know, some of them atheists were religionists, some were even fundamentalists. They had been there before, and they found nothing.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker A conservative estimate based on how pervasive religion is.

Where did this estimate come from?

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker 90+% believe in those?

Sure, if you select the geographical region and time period properly.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker It does when those same people claim gods gave them the knowledge.

Maybe, but we haven't got to square one yet.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker These were different cultures with different culture bearers, e.g., no Achilles in China.

Achilles was not a god.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker When creation stories from all over the world agree on certain aspects, and those certain aspects are compatable with science, then that raises a question: how did they know?

The devil is in the details. If you ignore the painful details, sure, a lot of things tend to look alike, particularly when you keep moving up abstraction levels.

	14-12-2004 19:30									#193
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quote: But atheists ignore the proof and point to matters of faith or butchered interpretations of religious scripture to dismiss God. I was in that boat myself and then decided to do some research on my own.

Let me guess, you picked up some Sumarian scrolls and noticed the plane of Pluto's orbit and the rings of Saturn are aligned (note of course the variation cycle of the latter)? There is no proof of God that I have seen that cannot be easily refuted and discredited, perhaps you could show me the error of my ways and demonstrate otherwise, instead of spuriously claiming some atheistic conspiracy or whatever?

quote: A conservative estimate based on how pervasive religion is.

You need to examine why.

quote: Jesus H Christ, so I didn't add an (s) to "god" and you have to go on a rant? Most people here can figure out "god" can mean any and all gods when debating atheism vs religion.

Wait a minute, I said atheism denies both mono and polytheism, which still leaves open both my original point and my question.

	14-12-2004 19:33									#194
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quote: quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy There are no simple explanations for anything in this complicated universe. You mean like "God made it"?

IW!

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 19:39									#195
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Now now, sometimes when people have invisible friends, the kindest thing to do is just to play along

	14-12-2004 23:06									#196
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What I find laughable is the atheists faith in the Big Bang, the Universe, and stuff as being the end of all enquiry.

Your view rests on a misunderstanding or a prejudice. Most atheists support the Scientific Method, and the scientific method clearly states that there is no such thing as "the end of all enquiry".

Now, some atheists will put an absurd faith in the big-bang theory, because they don't want to let the "God is in the gaps" argument any room - thus they'll reject the existence of gaps. But these people aren't the mainstream of atheism.

	14-12-2004 23:08									#197
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quote: Your view rests on a misunderstanding or a prejudice. Most atheists support the Scientific Method, and the scientific method clearly states that there is no such thing as "the end of all enquiry".

True, scientific knowledge is the antithesis to faith. That's why no-one will ever (one hopes) catch me saying that "I believe in the big bang" or "I believe in evolution", simply because belief is unnecessary and undermines scientific knowledge. At least, let's hope the search feature is sufficiently screwed that people can't find examples, if they can I clearly hadn't made the distinction in my own mind yet.

	14-12-2004 23:11									#198
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Most 'atheists' are just some sort of college frat boy pussies, looking for an excuse to **** around and live recklessly.

Bullcrap. In some parts of the world where atheism is/was institutionally suported, the huge majority of the people is atheist.

Mass religiosity (or lack thereof) is mostly related to the exposure to religion. In a society that makes religiosity the norm, most people will be religious. In a society that makes areligiosity the norm, most people will be atheists. It has nothing to do with being a college frat pussie.

	14-12-2004 23:47									#199
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quote: What I find laughable is the atheists faith in the Big Bang, the Universe, and stuff as being the end of all enquiry.

I'm curious how much inquiry have you put into " the Big Bang, the Universe, and stuff?" How many classes on general relativity and cosmology have you taken?

	16-12-2004 20:53									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think Flew forgot something basic. That is, what created this super-intelligence?

I remember reading something written by a former atheist once. He said he saw no reason why, if you assume an original cause, you have to assume that the rules of all the effects apply to the cause as well.

Yes, I know, it defies the scientific method, but, y'know, who "created" the pinpoint of matter that exploded in the big bang? Can't you always ask, "and where did that come from?" in response to any supposedly definitive answer? Has anyone ever questioned string theory, "and what are the strings made of?"

Maybe the intelligence simply was, and if there were ever a time that it wasn't, that time is so far in the past as to be beyond our reckoning. We just don't like final answers if we try to think about them. Which is why I don't bother.

	16-12-2004 21:09									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Yes, I know, it defies the scientific method, but, y'know, who "created" the pinpoint of matter that exploded in the big bang? Can't you always ask, "and where did that come from?" in response to any supposedly definitive answer? Has anyone ever questioned string theory, "and what are the strings made of?"

I'm not qualified to speak on string theory, but an honest atheist will answer most of your questions with "I don't know." Note that I don't know != God. It just means we don't know. 2500 years ago, nobody knew what lightning was or where it came from so the religious people of the time invented a god to explain it.

quote: Maybe the intelligence simply was, and if there were ever a time that it wasn't, that time is so far in the past as to be beyond our reckoning. We just don't like final answers if we try to think about them. Which is why I don't bother.

I can skip a step and say the universe always was, or matter always was. Why the need for an intelligence that always was?

	16-12-2004 21:13									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Gravitational theory predicts that under the extreme conditions that prevailed in the early universe, space and time may have been so distorted that there existed a boundary at which the distortion of space-time was infinite, and therefore through which space and time cannot have continued. Ergo, no "time before" the singularity, as the singularity was the boundary of time.

Doesn't make the big bang a moment of creation.

Causation is not necessarily dependent on time, at least in the sense of space-time.

	16-12-2004 21:16									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov This makes no sense. In order for what you're saying here to be true, there would have to some immutable laws outside of the singularity. This isn't the case, according to theory, as everything--the universe--was contained by the singularity.

Laws aren't material things. It's trivially true that the universe obeys immutable laws.

quote: You seem to be arguing as if the singularity was floating in space. That's not what BB theory says--it says that space itself was a product of the BB.

The singularity was in space-time, but it encompassed space-time entirely.

	16-12-2004 21:19									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Which requires lengths in the first place. Do you understand the meaning of the word "infinite" or "infinitesimal"?

It did have length. Zero.

	16-12-2004 21:36									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: What I find laughable is the atheists faith in the Big Bang, the Universe, and stuff as being the end of all enquiry. I'm curious how much inquiry have you put into " the Big Bang, the Universe, and stuff?" How many classes on general relativity and cosmology have you taken?

how much inquiry have most athiests put into it

most atheists are just as much faith based as christians

JM

	16-12-2004 21:40									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I remember reading something written by a former atheist once. He said he saw no reason why, if you assume an original cause, you have to assume that the rules of all the effects apply to the cause as well.

That's not how Flew arrived at the conclusion. He did not assume an original cause, he just got there by his own reasoning. Thus, there's no reason why such reasoning (complexity etc.) should not be applied one step up.

As for this other person you referred to, he was speaking nonsense, in a lot more words. He was clearly trying to sound knowledgable about something unknowable.

	16-12-2004 22:03									#207
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quote: It did have length. Zero.

Then by your two-dimensional reasoning, you deny the existence of singularities. A logical system predicated in a given condition (i.e. this universe) cannot be used to make predictions about conditions that are extrenuous to the original, for example, an external analysis of the universe at point time = 0. By definition therefore we have to consider it infinitesimal with infinite and infinitesimal surface area. I again reiterate the need for you to do your homework on the nature of infinity .

quote: Causation is not necessarily dependent on time, at least in the sense of space-time.

Ummm, potential -> actuality?

quote: The singularity was in space-time, but it encompassed space-time entirely.

So you would argue that it wasn't governed by time at all?

	16-12-2004 22:12									#208
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clearly this man's opinion wasn't worth anything to you fundies when he didn't believe in God, but now he changes his mind and he's suddenly gained all this credibility?

what kind of bullshit is that?

	16-12-2004 22:28									#209
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Sava

	18-12-2004 00:15									#210
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I'm just saying there's ALWAYS another question to ask. You can always ask And Where Did That Come From? or What Is That Made Of? As long as you're skipping a step, skip the whole bloody process. When you're describing the basic nature of reality-a thing with absolutely no basis for comparison, no room to step back and examine from different angles, just due to its nature as a question-none of it "makes sense," because it's all resting on empty air from a human perspective. There will never be a final truth to this kind of question; it's not "I don't know," but "I can't know."

I was paraphrasing the former atheist from memory, and at any rate I don't think he was aiming for scientific proof so much as trying to explain his perspective. I'm not really trying to join the argument. I view evolution, the big bang, etc. as equally meaningless trivia from either a believing or a skeptical perspective.

At the risk of sounding homespun-smarmy, I'd like to say that you don't need to know squat about the Wright brothers to fly a plane. The only valid reason I can see for caring is if you're religious; that is, if you think the Wright brothers left behind an instruction manual. Even then, there's no reason to get all steamed up about it.