11-12-2004 21:13									#31
	Suffering from ads?

But you're then losing two whole turns, virtually negating any advantage you could possibly gain, short of a minimum of two cows that can both be accessed by a river capital without border exapansion yet not with in the radius of the original spot.

	11-12-2004 21:43									#32
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punkbass, the presence of a Cattle/Wheat/Wine just outside the starting location more than makes up for the lost turns moving the Settler. This is something you have admitted already by saying that if a bonus Food resource were visible but not accessible from the starting location (say, the Settler starts on a Hills tile), you would move the Settler toward it. If you are not convinced this is the right play, I suggest again that you try a couple of test games to see which ends up on top.

(Consider that, if you find a Cattle on Grassland, your city grows in 7 turns, which is 3 turns faster than without any bonus Food. So your Settler could walk around for up to 3 turns and still end up growing at the same time as if you had not moved it at all.)

So what you are arguing for is not the lots time in terms of movement of the Settler, but movement of the Worker; if you move your Worker onto the Hills and do not discover anything interesting, the Settler is free to found your capital on the starting location as before.

Now, I'm a big fan of the Worker-turn efficiency, but in my experience it has very often been worth my while to waste a turn or two of Worker movement in order to make sure I will found my capital at a locally ideal spot. What you gain from mining that Bonus Grassland two turns earlier is two extra Shields, which can admittedly speed up production on something a whole turn (or, a extra 2 Beakers can be just what you need to research that tech on turn faster). But these things are less advantageous than irrigating bonus Food faster, because more Food is more growth, which translates into more pop, which translates into both more Shields and Commerce. So if I had the choice between irrigating a bonus Food and exploring with my Worker, I would certainly irrigate.

But the situation here is that there is no bonus Food to irrigate. So the choice is between wasting 2 Shields (2 Commerce) and gambling that you will find a better starting location, or not wasting any Worker-turns on a sure thing. Again, in my experience, the gamble often pays off, and when it does not, I rarely miss those 2 Shields and 2 Commerce.

	11-12-2004 21:58									#33
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Ok, but I'm not arguing you should never move your worker to find better starts, just not here. This is a very good start as far as I'm concerned, despite the lack of food bonuses. I don't think wasting three turns, in this case, if unsuccessful, is a risk you need to take. As I said at the beginning of my first post to werty, I wouldn't term that move "incorrect" by any means. Much like chess, opening play in Civ often provides several reasonable choices. The only difference is that there are more random factors in civ. IMO, this would be a '?!' (dubious) move. At best it could be '!?' (interesting), without presuming any outcomes, any way. I don't know the actual chances. If its 50-50 chance of viewing an +2 food bonus or FPs, I'd at least say you're right for SP. For MP, I don't know that it's worth the risk. Do you want to lose a PBEM a month later because you wasted turns with your worker? Assuming no AI, you all start out equally (give or take), and the loss of three random worker turns could easily mean the difference between getting the only Iron on a 2-civ-continent. Both from the lost revenue, but also the immeasurable damage of haing every road three turns behind, losing many worker and xploration turns at the least, as well as getting that aforementioned city founded with that 1 move settler.

	12-12-2004 01:47									#34
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Played the first 5 turns.

3450 BC
Clarke moved 4, worker1 start mining, set slider to 8,1,1 to avoid civil disorder.
Since I need only 3 shileds to finish worker, I worked a grassand near the river for 1 turn to gain an extra trade.

3400 BC Worker2 ready, start building another warrior for 'police service' and because I fear the barbarians. Lewis is ok now so I move him on the mountain.
Slider to 9.1.0 since now population is 1.

3350 BC Lewis North, Clark West ignoring hut because I fear barbarians. Worker2 reached worker1 to speed up tile improvements.

From 3350 BC to 3250 BC Only Exploring.

On Next turn the warrior will be ready. What build next? We need 14 turns to reach size 3, so we can exclude settler. We have already 5 units, maybe it's time to start to build something (barracks? Temple?)

	12-12-2004 08:51									#35
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I would consider a Barracks at this point, Babylon probably isn't going to be a particularly good worker or settler pump and we don't have Pottery anyway. Probably the best city for that will be one that can use those Wines. Early military becomes more and more important at higher levels as the AI starts with more units and gets more with each city. Lord help you if you start too close to the Germans on new difficulty level, as they have both WC and BW and get free Spears and Archers.

	12-12-2004 19:17									#36
	Increase Your PM Length

3200 BC. New warrior ready, I rename him 'policeman'. He stays in town bacause of a barbarian near Babylon.
Starting barracks.

3150 BC. Workers finish to improve BG (mine+road),
I move them to near forest to chop it down and speed up barracks construction.

3100 BC. Lewis finishes to wxplore north, let's go East.
Clark on mountain discovers gems.

3000 BC Barbarian is near Babylon, Policeman attacks him and wins. Now he's veteran but town is without a policeman, so I need to rise the luxury slider. I wonder if it was a good move to attack the barbarian.
Forest is chopped, workers start building road.

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	12-12-2004 19:19									#37
	Put an end to popups!

And the saved game

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 3000 bc.sav
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	12-12-2004 20:28									#38
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I normally wouldn't attack a barb with a warrior, but I think you still get a small bonus on Emp plus he's a conscript so it's not too big a risk.

	12-12-2004 21:21									#39
	Put an end to popups!

Wow. Looks like I missed the start of this second game. Punkbass, I'd like to try to join in but this week is terrible for me. I'll follow and try to participate; am I right that there is no set play order (yet)?. Thanks for setting it up.

	12-12-2004 21:41									#40
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Nope, no play order. IF you could do one round this week that would be good, otherwise I'll see if werty wants to do the next ten as well (assuming no one else joins), as I don't want to run into the same problem as last time where I (and other professers) and play relatively too many turns and make the game too easy. Even commenting on your guys reports and having debates, etc., makes it easier, like when Dom, Modo and I just start assuming and stating as though obvious where next cities should be, what builds should be done, etc. In any case, even if you have no time whatsoever this week, you can always join to play 10 turns whenever you feel like (give or take, of course). Nothing is ever really "set" with a SG.

	12-12-2004 21:48									#41
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I played this game from 4000 BC upto industrial. I would say it is somewhat "hard" game to be a first game on this level. You put raging barbarians (or restless: there were many horsemen in uprisings) and fewer than normal opponents. Both are no good for the first game. Because barbarians are too much distraction for the REX and fewer opponents gives more land for these pests, plus small number of opponents do not let you to practice tech trading which is a big difference with earlier levels. But in general very good game.

	12-12-2004 21:58									#42
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Yes, barbs were Raging, as per request in TSG 101.

Are you sure there are too few opponents? For one thing, I know for sure there are six, and I'm almost positive I selected a Small map as well as the 'All random' selection for civs, which would override any 'None' selections. You, of course, may be right, but I do find it hard to believe I missed both of these things when setting up the game.

	12-12-2004 22:13									#43
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Nice initiative Punkbass. And this game seems to be more interesting than the first

I'd want to comment on a few things though. I agree with you that trading for techs is easier than researching them, but with a river start my first tech is almost always Pottery full blast. Granaries are key structures, and it is dangerous to rely on getting it from the AI IMHO. Another point: if no AI's can be found Warrior Code should be researched by hand as well, because Bowmen are nice against barbs.

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I would consider a Barracks at this point, Babylon probably isn't going to be a particularly good worker or settler pump and we don't have Pottery anyway. Probably the best city for that will be one that can use those Wines. Early military becomes more and more important at higher levels as the AI starts with more units and gets more with each city. Lord help you if you start too close to the Germans on new difficulty level, as they have both WC and BW and get free Spears and Archers.

I would never build a Barracks in this position. I am not an expert player by any means, mind you, but in my opinion a granary (on pottery, view my previous comment) or even a temple is much more useful here. A Barracks, why? I can see no AI yet. Barbs can be fought with regulars (and Bowmen are good against barbs anyway). Even when an AI comes into play, then you can just placate and rex like mad. When rex is underway you can nominate a city for military production (here probably Babylon).

Also, I don't like the early worker build. Babylon grows in 10 turns, so let it be at size two a little longer. I would have popped out an early settler, and build a granary in the second city near the wines or the cow.

Just my opinion in this, I am just curious why you played like you did

	12-12-2004 22:26									#44
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Even with Granary, you won't get a Settler very often here, because no food bonuses are ready to be used. So you'll have "spare" time, producing other things. Sure, a Temple is nice, but only useful when the city grows bigger. For now, units to explore, and (if needed) defend against the AI, are much more important. And you don't want to have Regular units. Even with a Religious civ, the Barracks should go first IMO, except when aiming for Cultural victory.

	12-12-2004 22:33									#45
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Still it will go faster with a granary. And a Barracks delays founding new cities (near food bonuses)

	12-12-2004 22:48									#46
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Sure, I'd go with a Granary too, but in this game, it isn't an option yet... Considering what's available here, Barracks goes before Temple almost every time (Cultural victory being the exception).

	12-12-2004 23:03									#47
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Yeah, what Modo said. As for no Pottery, that was a bit of an oversight on my part, but I think we'll be able to trade fo it soon. We should have a couple neighbours and they will research/pop Pottery fairly quickly.

Yes, the capital virtually always deserves a Granary (especially with a river), but this will never be very good pump and thus it doesn't need one immediately. Once the Barracks is up I would build two settlers and then workers (out of pop-consuming units. Intersperse Warriors [not to mention the Granary, whenever the tech comes along] whenever wanted/needed). The two settlers can take advantage of the Wines for bonus food and build granaries early. Two pumps plus the capital is plenty of granaries for this early on with a small map.

EDIT: As for Warrior Code, I will definitely wait to trade; I won't want more than a few Bowmen for barbs and this is not an 'Archer Rush' situation, IMO.

As for why Barracks over Temple, well, a Temple is pretty well useless, really. My capital already produces culture and there's no real reason to build one otherwise at this point. I have already designated my capital as the military camp, as per above, as it will be high pop but low actual fpt and also high shield, thus better serving as a military pump. It will be able to reach the magical '10spt' pretty soon after it's done with the two settlers.

EDIT EDIT: AS for the early Worker, you should try it some time, I think you'll come to appreciate it . How many shields would have been produced at a higher size right now without the extra Worker? Perhaps a bit more than have been produced thus far, but the gap will soon close and the effects of the extra Worker will multiply and greatly outweigh the one pop loss, especially as Babylon is the military camp.

Last edited by punkbass2000 on 12-12-2004 at 23:10

	13-12-2004 07:12									#48
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 IF you could do one round this week

I will be able to play this today! Leaving work hours early. Report forthcoming after catching up with thread and game progress so far.

	13-12-2004 07:51									#49
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3000 BC (end of turn): Slider lux left at 10%. Interesting question you guys have discussed about temple v. granary v. barracks. In this situation if it were me (pre TSG's) I would have certainly built the temple. I'm a builder after all and a tiny culture investment early pays big big dividends (much fun to watch that early culture graph on F8 ), not to mention the happiness. I'll leave at barracks however given what was discussed on thread.

2950 BC: Policeman to Babylon. Lux to 0 (saves 1 gpt). Clark NW, Lewis E.

2900 BC: Police fortify. Clark N, Lewis SE.
Workers finish road. They can only mine that spot. Might be nice to get some irrigation for food and hill mined for shield. Also, could start roading to potential new city sites, which looking around quickly I like Babylon 447 which would be on river, help get wines, and clear the barb camp. OTOH, Bab 477 might be better b/c there is more room for a second city on the Euphrates river farther to the NW. Worker1 W of Babylon, Worker2 SW of Babylon.

2850 BC: Both workers to road. Clark N, Lewis SE. Clark finds what looks like more territory N though I thought the land mass would end on a peninsula.

2800 BC: Babylonian workers complete a new facility for training of glorious armies! Our happy MA fires up the citizens and readies to mobilize and spread our culture and glory. These settlers will leave the homeland in...three centuries (well, maybe they were not that fired up as our MA reported).

Clark N, Lewis SE. Lewis spots a strange weed which SA identifies as sugar.

2750 BC: Clark N, Lewis S. Clark now spots strange weeds, which the SA says can be used to spice up our bland cuisine.

2710 BC: Lewis spots another vile member of the Hurrian race running NW, now located 44 from his original position. Lewis sends smoke signal to Babylon saying there might be a camp nearby. He investigates by moving SW but finds nothing. Alone, Lewis philosophizes on the NW/SE bug and thinks the camp might be farther SE, and that he might have triggered the barb during his travels over the last half millenia.

Clark N, still mired in jungle. Worker1 NE to road, Worker2 N to hill.

2670 BC: Hurrian fortifies. Clark NW and finds more spice. Workers road.

2630 BC: Dastardly Hurrian unfortifies and moves E. Lewis moves east too, but instead of a barb camp he finds spice. Babylonian Epicurean club thereby founded (meets every 1st Tuesday at the barracks).

2590 BC: Hurrian follows Lewis SE. Lewis E. Clark N and finds banana shangri-la, the mythical garden where apolyton gods of lore spent idle time. Will our sons and daughters have the ability and fortune to found a thriving metropolis on the site of this garden?

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	13-12-2004 07:55									#50
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2550 BC: Lewis NE (more sugar sighted), Clark N. Babylonian settlers ready, and head off to Baby 477. Babylon is tempted to build a temple (10 turns only) but opts for warrior to explore the Great Southern void. Worker 1 irrigates, b/c Babylon is stuck at 10 turns till growth.

So ends my ten turns of glory.

PB, don't worry, we knew about space race screen. I don't generally if ever use it though. Plus you can always get similar info via F11, which is easier to get to than F10 and also which I think no one views as exploit.

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Last edited by dmd175 on 13-12-2004 at 08:29

	13-12-2004 07:58									#51
	Increase Your PM Length

onward soldiers

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	13-12-2004 08:05									#52
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Guys, I was just looking at the demographics, and well, I hoped that I could play the next 10 turns also, without anyone being offended. Our demographics are bad...mainly b/c (I think) lack more cities. [Funny that we have all this information and have no evidence any one else is out there]

I want to build that city. Since the last ten turns were uneventful and played quickly, I hope that is ok.


EDIT: demographics likely erroneously low since I just kicked out that settler (lower pop by 66% = less tiles worked, etc)

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	13-12-2004 08:27									#53
	that was quick Full PM-box? Change here!

2550 BC: end of turn...nothing to do.

2510 BC: Lewis S, Clark N.

2470 BC: Nineveh founded (warrior). We also have our first woman citizen. Lewis SE, Clark NE.

2430 BC: Clark, having reached the end of the banana peninsula by slaying the great protector ape, must now head south on a 1 millenium journey to reach the border of outer nineveh. Lewis W. Worker2 mines.

2390 BC: Babylon builds veteran warrior. We could build warrior for MP duty and protection. But there is no one around (ok, one erratic Hurrian somewhere). Hell, let's build that temple.

Veteran S. Worker 1 W. Lewis W.

2350 BC: Worker 1 to wine. Veteran climbs the mountain S of Babylon and scouts much tundra and a fish. Lewis W...and he confronts head on the Hurrian warrior...

2310 BC:...who attacks and kills Lewis. Worker1 begins hooking up wines. Veteran SW.

2270 BC: Nineveh builds warrior (IX Corps), who will explore W. Now build to worker. Veteran SW.

2230 BC: Veteran and IX Corps NW. Clark (S) runs into an English warrior who brings bad news.

Elizabeth has masonry, alphabet, pottery, wheel, warrior code; two slave workers; 35 gold; the city of York. Life at emperor level. Will not trade for alphabet, wheel, masonry. Pottery costs 3gpt+148, warrior code 148+6gpt. I know WC gives us our UU, but 1) we don't need it right now (or yet, hopefully, but who knows what England has in store for us), and 2) I certainly do not want GA anytime soon.

Thus, I buy pottery for 2gpt+133 (cheapest possible). I've switched Babylon to granary, but next emperor will have time if he wants to switch back to temple w/o shield loss.

2190 BC: Wines hooked up. Worker1 irrigates. Veteran W, IX Corps NW, Clark S.

2150 BC: Veteran W and finds Harappan camp with 2 warriors. IX Corps W, Clark S.

EDIT: arrows approx last known positions of English and Hurrian warriors.

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	13-12-2004 08:33									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sorry to say our demographics are not that much better. Pop to 56k from 10k, GNP/mfg both little less than doubled, productivity from 10 to 20. English have 19% world pop vs. our 11%.

We should expand westward to block English. I just chatted with Elizabeth before the turn was over, and she needless to say was not willing to trade anything for 23 +5gpt. One of the last epic huge map games I played I started next to the English and whipped them like a dog with warriors and horsemen. Looking forward to doing that again, this type with bowmen.

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	13-12-2004 08:37									#55
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One quick thing about improving tiles. Mining a hill while in Despotism isn't very worthwhile. It takes 12 turns as well as only giving you a 1 food 2 shield tile (with Dep. penalty), or, in other words, a forest. Though Nineveh does not have a forest to work, it's still probably not worth the time.

	13-12-2004 08:52									#56
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PB, good point about disadvantage of mining hill now. I was trying to get that worker to cross the river, and the hill was open. Given the situation where both worker 1 and worker 2 were done and S of Babylon, what would have been a better work order: irrigate grassland, start working the plains across the river, start roading out to the wines, or something else?

	13-12-2004 09:05									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh yeah, I knew I had another thing to say. Don't irrigate grasslands (without food bonuses) under Despotism either. It does nothing except save you from having to irrigate the tile later when you have a better government. Despotism reduces any food or shield production above three by one. Thus a grassland (2 food) gains 1 food through irrigation but has now crossed the "three" threshold and loses a food, reducing it back to two. Do irrigate the Wines, though, as they give a +1. Thus, they produce 3 food, minus 1 because of Despotism. Irrigating gives a +1 to (4 - 1).

EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question I would road towards the Wines first, though irrigating a plains is also pretty useful.

	13-12-2004 09:08									#58
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Something I noticed:

quote: Originally posted by dmd175 Worker 1 irrigates, b/c Babylon is stuck at 10 turns till growth.

This does nothing; the +1 Food you get from irrigating a Grassland is lost to the despotic tile penalty.

Irrigating the Wines Grassland is the right move though, but (just to complicate things!) not the Wines Plains.

	13-12-2004 17:28									#59
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If nobody else is going to join as student, I will be happy to play the next ten turns today when I arrive at home (About 18:00 Central Europe Time)

Besides, What's the right action to do with Wines Plains?

	13-12-2004 18:32									#60
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Thanks for the critique. One part of my brain is definitely aware of the food/shield tile penalties under despotism. Part of the reason I irrigated was because I didn't think the worker had much good to do. The other option I considered was to road SW of Nineveh. PB, Dom, thanks. So far two tile mistakes. If you guys have time, could you outlay plan/work list for tiles/workers that makes sense?