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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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4000BC Tired of their nomadic wanderings and seeing lush grasslands, fertile plains and majestic rivers nearby, the Babylonians decided to settle their known lands and explore the nearby surroundings a bit. A momentous festival was thrown as a result of sighting fresh grapes growing indigenously to the E.
The Babylonians had trouble coming up with a good name for their capital, until one clever cynic shouted, "How about Babylon?! That would be REAL original!" at a town meeting. He was immeditely crowned the chief Science advisor as the people rejoiced in the streets, chanting "WE LIVE IN BABYLON". The cynic continued to annoy the populace declaring, "BABELLAND RULES!"
The Military Advisor also gave a succinct speech with his mighty axe about why Babylon should build a warrior. One dissenter was quickly slain and a unanimous vote ensued.
A band of conservatives, not wanting to be confined by the pressures of big city life struck out on their own to the S, calling themselves 'Worker1'. They were out of town before the Military advisor had a chance to charge them with draft dodging, as well as a sharp spear that he'd been working during the last few months of nomadic wanderings.
Oh, and the lazy Science Advisor drunkenly mumbled something about working on a new technology that would bring the people of Babylon a metal even greater than Bronze and that he was sure he'd have it on the Emperor's desk in 50 years, tops, with proper funding. The Emperor laughed in his face, made a few pessimistic comments about the national treasury and how things were gonna be tight before tossing him a single gold coin and chortling, "Here, use that for the next 50 years." Taken quite aback, the SA recomposed himself and snidely retorted, "Oh yeah, I'll get RIGHT to work on that Iron Working thing. Should be ready in a couple millenia".
 Attachment: tsg2babylon.jpg
This has been downloaded 95 time(s).
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wertyu70
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Three quick questions from a greenhorn:
1) Why you didn't move the worker on the hill NW of start position before founding Babylon?
2) Why 8.2.0?
3) Why Iron Working and not a beeline toward Philosophy?
Maybe my questions are stupid, but I'm here to learn my lesson...
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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3950BC Worker1 begins mine. MA still insinuates they're trying to hide underground, both metaphorically and literally.
3750BC Lead by the general 'Lewis', the mightiest band of warriors ever seen by the Babylonians is trained after much waiting and anticipation. A grand festival is thrown as a going away party. Many believe that they will never see these intrepid warriors again, especially as dragons and ogres likely in habit the lands outside of their knowledge. They are, however, couth enough not mention their concerns until the eager and naive young warriors are out of earshot. Attracted by their intoxicating aroma, the foolish young boys head immediately E towards the grape-laden groves.
Having gained favour by performing many useful tasks for the Emperor, the Domestic Advisor notes to the Emperor how the "rebels" have nearly completed their mine and it appears the citizen's production will likely double upon completion of the task. Considering his growing population, the Emperor decides that perhaps another group of "workers" would benefit his city and quell the mounting cases of public drunk and disorderly.
3700BC Reportedly, Lewis finds nothing but water E of the grapes and decides to change course and towards warmer climates to the N.
3650BC Suddenly realizing how well the DA characterized the increase in productivity caused by the completion of the mine, the Emperor orders that the Workers being trained have their shovels taken and replaced by handaxes. 
Worker1 begins road.
3550BC Lead by the fearless 'Clark', another band of warriors prepares to head W to further the knowledge of the Babylonian people. Just as the going away festival was concluding, Hammurabi called Clark into his Palace. He told him how public riots were becoming increasingly common and that the coffers were simply too empty to pay both Clark's salary as well as to pay for luxuries the keep his city from falling into disrepair. Clark initially ran off into hills in the name of exploration, but soon begrudgingly followed Hammurabi's orders and set up camp on the outskirts of the city. Hammurabi assured him it wouldn't be very long before he would be able to get rid of the "gullible riffraff" by simply giving the "great offer" of allowing them to live in exile on the city's outskirts, completing various, well-paid tasks.
Erstwhile, Lewis, henceforth known as 'Lewis the bungler', managed to break several of a nearby tribes most highly held customs and to even accidentally walk on a sacred rug, resulting in Hurrian raids of his expedition party that could be expected for years to come.
3500BC Lewis' party took heave losses from a barbarian raids this year and was reduced to 1/3 of his original expedition. It was estimated that it would take at least 100 years of constant rest for his men to regain their former strength.
Finally feeling a sense of national pride, as well as becoming more comfortable with their area of settlement, the people of Babylon were finally willing to work more than just a few miles from the city and were seen in the highly productive grasslands to the SW.
Attempting to distance themselves further from Babylon, Worker1 continued W upon finishing their road. An increase in trade was noted by Babylon's Finance Minister.
Attachment: tsg23500bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by wertyu70
Three quick questions from a greenhorn:
1) Why you didn't move the worker on the hill NW of start position before founding Babylon? |
Though not a bad move, and certainly not "incorrect", per se, I personally don't tend to like to move my initial settler without a particularly good reason. Every turn at the beginning of the game is crucial and cannot afford to be wasted. I will move my settler no more than one square, generally speaking, and only if I see a cow or something extremely valuable. As this was already a pretty nice start I didn't see a need to go anywhere and I also didn't want to waste three worker turns moving to the hill and then back down to the BG, which is clearly the initial tile of choice for my citizens. Incidentally, I also did not move my settler to the hill because, despite the defensive bonus, there are only a few hills arounf and I will want all of them for production later; the defensive bonus shouldn't even come up for my capital unless we're going to lose anyway.
This is the most money I can make while still producing 1 beaker per turn (bpt). IMO, if you have not mastered Emperor then you should not even begin to try to do self-research; you should be buying and trading for techs. Even if you have mastered Emperor a 50-turn pace can still be advisable for your first tech, especially if its second tier, as you can't get it a whole lot faster than 50 turns anyway, as both Dom and I demonstrated in our tangents in the original TSG, and that was only Monarch.
EDIT: This page of TSG contains both mine and Dom's research. Neither of us states exactly when we achieved Writing, but at 2110BC (40 turns in) Dom't 29 turns from Phil and I'm still 38 away. As you can see, we probably didn't achieve Writing for at least 30 or 35 turns anyway.
quote:
3) Why Iron Working and not a beeline toward Philosophy? |
Quite frankly, without a Com/Sea civ (ie. one that starts with Alph.), we don't have a good chance at being first to Phil anyway, especially as we're new at this level. Also, IW has more immediate benefits (particularly having Iron become visible) than Writing, which only gives embassies and preqs. In addition, being able to research IW right off the bat is one of the main advantages of having a Sci civ. It will have slightly less trading value than Writing, and I would pick Writing if we started with both Alph and BW, as it would be more likely for us to have a Writing monopoly than an IW monopoly. As it stands, we're really more looking for an important, expensive tech that we won't have to pay for and may be able to trade to at least some civs.
quote:
Maybe my questions are stupid, but I'm here to learn my lesson... |
No such thing as a stupid question, and you hit the nail on the head: we're here to learn. By the same token, please don't take any criticisms I may have of your play to heart.
If you like, you can play the next ten turns:
 Attachment: tsg2 3500bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
Last edited by punkbass2000 on 11-12-2004 at 00:02
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
[EDIT: Checked the first post again... ]
With the AU Mod, a Philosophy beeline should still be possible. All it would need is Alphabet from a trade... |
Nonetheless, I don't like to rely on unreliable things and either way, I don't want to be researching Alph. If, in a normal game I was playing, when I complete IW, I was able to trade for Writing immediately and knew that Writing had been researched relatively recently (ie. I've had Alph by now for a bit) I would consider rushing Phil, but even then, it's a risk. If I don't get that free tech it's not a very useful tech. MoM is an expensive free  cathedral and other than that all I get is the preq for Rep, which I would still need CoL for anyway and I can get both through trading if I research something the AI doesn't have, like maybe Constr or some such.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
C'm on. Like I had to tell you how easy it is to get Philosophy with the AU Mod. |
I don't believe the Babylonians had any knowledge of how easy it would be to get Philosophy first, nor that they're "AU universe" was any different than any of the parallels.
Also, players new to Emperor might not find it so easy. Beyond that, even if I do find myself able to trade for Writing by the time I discover IW, If there are a few Com/Sea civs around, (of which there are three, and please don't ask/post how I legitimately know, I consider it an exploit and wouldn't use it if it weren't for this discussion) and it's generally likely there are, as ~1/4 of the civs are, they may easily beat me to it, especially if I don't end up with contact with them.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
Though not a bad move, and certainly not "incorrect", per se, I personally don't tend to like to move my initial settler without a particularly good reason. Every turn at the beginning of the game is crucial and cannot afford to be wasted. I will move my settler no more than one square, generally speaking, and only if I see a cow or something extremely valuable.
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I believe wertyu70 was suggesting that you move the Worker onto the Hills tile as your first move, not the Settler. Given the relative "averageness" of the starting location, this is probably what I would have done too.
quote:
Neither of us states exactly when we achieved Writing, but at 2110BC (40 turns in) Dom't 29 turns from Phil and I'm still 38 away. As you can see, we probably didn't achieve Writing for at least 30 or 35 turns anyway.
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Still, that's almost twice as fast as 50-turn research (and I probably got it in about 20 turns, taking into account REXing, growth, and new improvements). I almost never do 50-turn research anymore: I find that the money you save for upgrades or whatnot can easily be manufactured later, either by cutting off research for a short while, or (more commonly) through all the AI's Barb Gold - obtained in exchange for the techs I research at top speed.
Admittedly, I have been doing this as a knee-jerk reaction for quite some time, and I have no evidence to show that it's a best practice. It works well for me, though.
---
Have fun with this one...hope it lasts longer than the first!
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
Dominae -> Why not? If you can get (or have) Alphabet early, doing the 50 turns for Writing usually gives you a full sweep on technlogy, while preparing the cash for Philosophy. And with the AU Mod, even squeezing Pottery first is sometimes possible. Or is it possible to research something else, then go for Writing, and get both in under 50 turns? |
I'm not sure what you mean by "full sweep on technology". As for "preparing cash for Philosophy", I typically have enough Gold through trades involving Writing, which I get much earlier than 50 turns.
On the difficulty levels that I play (Demigod and Deity), it is no sure thing that I will get to either Writing or Philosophy first. The Gold that I would save on 50-turn reseach is worth very little when the AIs have surpassed me technologically (good luck trading for Philosophy and Code of Laws, not to mention all the other earlier techs you missed out on, with Gold alone). If I try 50-turn Writing and a strong AI gets it before me, the discount factor goes to waste because it does not help me take turns off the 50. Put another way, if I speed up my reseach from that point on, say, turn 20, then I will have wasted time during those first 20 turns because I only have 20 Beakers put forward toward Writing. And, unfortunately, the AI will not be willing to trade me Writing at low cost, because I only have 20 Beakers on it. The Gold I saved is usually not enough. I would rather the AI beat me to Writing when I have, say, 200/250 Beakers on it, because then I can trade for Writing at much reduced cost and keep going on my Philosophy beeline. On Deity (stock rules), it's not rare for me to lose the race to Writing, but win the race to Philosophy.
On Emperor and below, it seems to me like I gain very little advantage in slowing the tech pace down by doing 50-turn research. What do I really gain from having 200 Gold in my Treasury so early? I suppose I could upgrade my troops faster. But I prefer to reaching Philosophy at top speed, taking all the AI's Gold, and setting the Science slider to 0% (or, say, research The Republic at a 50-turn pace) to generate the necessary income for the remaining upgrades at that time. In either case, I generate the necessary Gold and end up ahead in tech. The difference is that in the Philosphy beeline at top research, I do not run the risk of having my plans foiled by some overseas KAI that I do not know about yet.
Another minor but not inconsequential point is that, with a large Treasury early on, the AIs are more likely to attack you because your Power rating is high. Given the style I most often adopt, "almost no military, defend yourself with diplomacy", having a low Treasury is critical to defending my interests. While researching Writing or Philosophy, my true strength is hidden in my accumulated Beakers, which do not (I presume) factor into the Power/Score rating. So the AIs think I am less threatening than I actually am. Of course, when I finally hit Philosophy my Power/Score jumps significantly, but by that time I have enough of a military to prevent disaster. Even if I do not, with all the trading that happens at that point (and setting up of Emassies), the AIs are very happy with me.
Last edited by Dominae on 11-12-2004 at 02:30
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Dominae
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Even with the Space Race trick, you cannot tell if an overseas AI will beat you to Writing or Philosophy. They might get lucky and obtain Alphabet or Writing for a Goody Hut, or they might have a crazy multiple-River Silks start. It's happened to me too often on Demigod to take the 50-turn gamble anymore.
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Dominae
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Do you still think it would have been a waste of time if there had been, say, a Cattle resource 47 of the starting location? Or (if you would have seen this last one by peering under the darkness) 77, across the Hills?
Given what the map acutally turned out to be like, it was probably best just to stay put. But the promise of a bonus Food resource is worth a wasted Worker-turn.
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wertyu70
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Thank you for the answers,
I still haven't start playing and I have already learnt something!
About moving the WORKER on the hill:
My Idea was to look for some hidden special resources
but as you pointed out, it's better not to waste turns at Emperor Level.
I need to lost my bad habits from lower levels.
I'm going to play the following ten turns today as soon as I come back from xmas shopping with my wife.
And I will accept every criticism by veteran people,
because I know I will do a lot of mistakes.
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punkbass2000
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Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:17
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You people are too picky This is pretty nice start, IMO, a river, plenty of grassland, plains and hills. A food bonus, etc., is far from necessary. Also there are plenty of good reasons not to move given the starting info. First of all, to the SE it is clearly coast, so you're gonna want a city on that coast 2 tiles SE. Thus, moving your settler NW simply reduces the overall number cities you're gonna have on this river. Second, you're never gonna want your worker to improve your hill first; it would take a damn long time and the best you could do would be up trade by one in six turns. Third, you're moving away from the only hills in sight, leaving you only the one the worker is one (presuming you're not putting your capital on the hill itself, which you shouldn't, IMO), not to mention a BG. Fourth, even if, as in the best case scenario, you uncover a juicy cow at 47, you still lose a turn moving your settler, while gaining only two fewer turns until growth. Beyond that, after the first ten turns of starting on the spot, you will get that cow anyway. So, on the offchance that there is in fact a cow there you gain two extra turns at pop 2 and, if I'm not mistaken, four extra turns with 3fpt, though you lose one turn off everything else (whatever you're building, culture [and doubling], research, hower much gpt you might have produced, etc.) If you move your worker and there is no such resource, you simply lose three worker turns; a much more likely outcome. And what if it's "just" wheat either you don't make the move and lose three worker turns, or make the move and have the above tradeoff plus you're giving up a BG for a wheat (in the short run, 1fpt in return for 1 spt). Probably a good deal on its own, but probably not worth it given all the other losses you will incur and the fact that you may not even be so lucky as to get wheat. One question to those advocating moving the worker: Do you play (in essence, anyway) all random starts and play regardless of terrain or "mistakes" you make in this situation (like moving the worker and finding nothing, or not moving the worker and later discovering there cows at both 47 AND 77, etc.)?
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by punkbass2000
One question to those advocating moving the worker: Do you play (in essence, anyway) all random starts and play regardless of terrain or "mistakes" you make in this situation (like moving the worker and finding nothing, or not moving the worker and later discovering there cows at both 47 AND 77, etc.)? |
I don't play very bad starts on Emperor (not feeling confident enough, yet). But if the start looks ok (mediocre or better, essentially), then I will play it, even after a "useless" worker move.
You forgot to mention, that the worker on a hill could have spotted some nice things two tiles away, in which case moving the settler and moving the worker might make sense. But, like I said, it's a gamble.
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10-12-2004 20:46
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