18-12-2004 21:37									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I guess it depends on attitude. You know, different people consider different things "fun".

Fun is fun, but this course is presuming that one is wishiing to aspire to higher levels of strategy. It's all well and good to play your game around the idea that you will have a Wonder factory at some point, but recognize that this is likely not optimal play. It's one thing to let someone know that they could do it one way for fun, but it's another to say they "should" be doing something sub-optimal.

quote: Yes, I know this game is about learning. Sorry, my bad.

There's no need for sarcasm and I don't understand what you're implying, anyway. AFAICT, I was promoting learning and a greater knowledge base.

quote: Sure, you can use the production, but not checking if there's BG under those Forests? Pop is power, I always thought? It is definately faster to Chop, then Road, than the other wa around, and I will usually (99% cases) want to get to that food, more than I want to get to those shields. Plus, you still get the production that gets lost before the Mine is up - that's the 10 shields that come with the Chop. Or am I missing a point here?

Like I say, it's highly situational. If Ellipi, for example, had a nice forest to work it would produce an extra spt because it grows every two turns, and at every growth it would gain two free shields. Nothing to sneeze at, and there's no lost growth whatsoever.
Beyond that, there are cities that will have uneven growth and cities that will be stuck at size 6, etc. It needs to be on a case by case basis. I mean, food is important, but you don't irrigate every square, do you? But yes, if you are going to chop, you generally want to chop first and road later.

quote: Quick comments on the 250 AD save. [list][*]You have way too few Workers. Many cities are working unimproved tiles, and that loses you a lot of cash, and shields. Get some more. Personally I'd double them up, to have 20.

Greatly concurred. You have 20 cities and 10 Workers. As Modo says, you want at least 20, preferable 30-40.

quote: [*]Ellipi is supposed to be a Worker/Settler pump. It should have enough food, and shields, to produce a worker every 2 turns, or a Settler every 4 turns. It should be cruising between size 4, and 5 - building the Settler/Worker on the turn it would grow to size 6. Mine some of that Grassland around the city (and perhaps take the Mined BG from Nineveh), and manage the citizens accordingly (best would be a constant +5 food surpulus). Start with Workers, because they can be made with less improved tiles around the city. Then do Settlers and Workers as needed. Later do Workers, to add them to slow-growing cities.

Again, agreed. Modo covers the specifics well. I would like to mention on overall trend I'm noticing is the great Builders Syndrome; you seem to want to build everything everywhere. Ellipi has no real use for either a Temple, Library or Barracks. It does not produce enough Commerce ATM to even make the Library anything more than a culture generator. City specialization is very important as you move up, especially in the early game. Weigh the advantages of each improvement before you build it. IF you're think of building a Barracks anywhere other than on a hostile border, ask yourself, "Am I planning to build a lot of units here after this build?" IF the answer is "No", then don't build it. Not only does it waste 40 shields, but it will cost 1gpt every turn thereafter. By the same token, don't build units in cities that don't have Barracks. It appears that most of your standing army is either Regular or was recently. Those that became Vets could be Elites by now had they been trained with Barracks.

	18-12-2004 21:50									#122
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Hi all,
unfortunately still I can't play due to Real Life commitments...
About Barbarians, I have to say that I configured my Conquests.ini file long ago with NoAIPatrol=0 when I heard I would fix barbarian bug, so my settings are different from other players.

	18-12-2004 22:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 There's no need for sarcasm and I don't understand what you're implying, anyway. AFAICT, I was promoting learning and a greater knowledge base.

Sorry, it's one of those days. I shouldn't be posting stuff like that, I know.

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Like I say, it's highly situational. If Ellipi, for example, had a nice forest to work it would produce an extra spt because it grows every two turns, and at every growth it would gain two free shields. Nothing to sneeze at, and there's no lost growth whatsoever. Beyond that, there are cities that will have uneven growth and cities that will be stuck at size 6, etc. It needs to be on a case by case basis. I mean, food is important, but you don't irrigate every square, do you? But yes, if you are going to chop, you generally want to chop first and road later.

In the situation here, with Hills and Mountains, I definately want all those Grasslands to produce 2 food, or more. That includes Grassland tiles covered by Forests. Early on, in Despotism, you need the 2 food to grow at any decent rate. Later the cities that might need some Forests (for lack of Hills/Mountains) for production, can be helped by Mining some Plains. And all those Chops can speed up some infrastructure. I still don't see a reason to leave Forests around.

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Greatly concurred. You have 20 cities and 10 Workers. As Modo says, you want at least 20, preferable 30-40.

20 cities? Wow, I should have counted them - thought it was less. That does bring us closer to 30 Workers.

	18-12-2004 22:02									#124
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260 AD: Horseback riding complete. Will switch to poly at 5 turns.

Sword 1 at Nott kills spear. Sword 2 kills spear and -2hp; spear to protect. Warrior moves to tobacco tile. IX Corp fortify to heal. Warrior1100 from Nippur to occupy horse tile.

270 AD: Hlobane Zulu completes SOZ. Galleys from Eridu and Samarra; Eridu galley sights land due E, will get there next turn.

Harrappan camp dispered far N of Babylon. Sword takes out another spear at Nott. Army takes out archer.

280 AD: Sword defending barbs promoted, kills 4 or 5 horses, and dies. London and Eulbar galleys. Settler teams from England NW and NE of Zariqum. Sword #1 kills Nott spear, -1hp. Sword #2 kills Nott spear, -2hp. IX Corps on oxford hill.

290 AD: Eulbar galley boxed by barb galley. Sword #1 kills Nott spear, -3 hp. Sheessh, how many spears are there? English will now talk: math and poly for peace = "close". Sword #2 kills Nott spear, -2hp, promote to elite. Unfortified spear remains, so I could use the two warriors...umm, I'll wait for next time with sword or two.

Spices hooked up = 4 lux.

Iroquois met: see attached f8 screen. Our military is weak vs. We are behind in score, power, and culture, but cutting into their lead rapidly. See score chart; power and culture similar. The Iroquois city list includes: Ur, Sumer, Bad-tibira, Kish, Umma. These are Sumerian cities, so Iroquois may be the proto KAI. Let's be nice, for now. We have a lot of extra lux to trade, so we can exploit that. OTOH, they have no communication or map for us yet - so at least no navigation for them.

Embassy established with them. Salamanca is pop 12 and shrinking, citizens are 4/2/2/4 hap/cont/un/entertain. f/s/g 13/23/36. Building sun tzu, 21 turns left. 4 pikes defending. Treasury =37 gold. Fully improved. Resources = 1 iron, which means no horses = no MW = no GA (pyramids etc might have triggered though). So they are mopping up w/o UU? They also have 1 dye and 1 ivory. Embassy converted them from cautious to polite.

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	18-12-2004 22:04									#125
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300 AD: First sword punches through Nott. 4 resisters, no improvements. Two settler teams near Zariqum again. London galley finds light blue borders = Sumeria but cannot get there yet. Samarra galley following Iroquois galley back home. Forces diverted from Nottingham toward Zariqum. Will attack settler teams once they reach my roads.

310 AD: Aztecs building Sistine. We need some techs. Got poly this turn, and I can research math in four turns. Plan is then to make peace with English after that to hopefully get construction and currency, and then our free tech.

Aztec galley met and green border found by Samarra galley. Embassy: Feudalism, 1 gold. Tenochtitlan: pop 2, 2 happy/7content. 35 turns to sistine. f/s/g = 22/14/18. 7 pikes. Fully upgraded with cathedral. Iron; dye, silk, incense, ivory.

Settlers will come from Nineveh and Babylon to settle the NE territory soon.

320 AD: Army defends archer. Settler from Ellipi. Will MM better for settler/worker pumpage. One English settler killed.Shaka contacted, polite. Embassy: Republic, Zimbabwe 3/3/3 citizens. 22 turns to Sun Tzu. Defended 2 impi. Only temple and Hanging gardens for improvements. Iron; dyes, ivory, silk.

Forces will go toward York and Warwick, since we cannot hope to get those in trade.

330 AD: Iroquois to build Sistine. We meet the Sumerians, who have only 2 cities and are at war with Iroquois. They will give math for 19 gold, so I buy it, even though we will get it in two turns (we are making 12 gpt so it seems like a fair price). I make peace with England for Construction, Oxford, and Newcastle. I trade philosophy for currency to English, and we advance finally to MA. Feudalism is the free tech. My general strategy is a rush to education/music theory, so I pick monotheism. We can research 13 turns +16 gold or 9 turns -2gold. I would pick 9 turns assuming our economy will grow and pull us out of the hole. What do you guys think - never negative $ flow?

Everybody except England has monotheism; I demand it from sumeria, no luck. Everybody except Sumeria and england has engineering. No one will trade for either of these techs. FYI our shield output sucks. London is high at 9spt = 67 turns to Sun Tzu = we're not getting that. I'm starting wonder pre builds in London, which can always be put toward col, cath, or HE if necessary. Needless to say, I'm trying to kick out lots of workers and settlers.

340 AD: Sumeria is under attack. Trying to make a per turn deal with them b/c they might die but we could get monot.

Half of our empire:

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	18-12-2004 22:10									#126
	Increase Your PM Length

other half

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	18-12-2004 22:20									#127
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted 20 cities? Wow, I should have counted them - thought it was less. That does bring us closer to 30 Workers.

Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, workers have lagged behind. I kicked out a few more so we now have 17. We also have 10 slaves. And 5 more workers produced in the next few turns. I'm not used to playing a war strategy, so I was building many more units than usual, and workers suffered.

quote: I would like to mention on overall trend I'm noticing is the great Builders Syndrome; you seem to want to build everything everywhere. Ellipi has no real use for either a Temple, Library or Barracks. City specialization is very important ... Weigh the advantages of each improvement ... It appears that most of your standing army is either Regular or was recently. Those that became Vets could be Elites by now had they been trained with Barracks.

Correct diagnosis, Dr. I do have great builders. I rushed temples in border cities, and temples and libraries in cities surroudning Nottingham, but may not have been necessary.

Will try to work on specialization and planning improvements.

I am aware that lots of new swords and spear are regulars because about in 170-190 AD when I started noticing the english acting funny I rushed units in cities near Nottingham that did not yet have barracks. I didn 't think I had time to squeeze in barracks. Future units will all be veterans.

quote: fact that we share our continent with only the English means that there's four Emp. AI on the other continent, most likely. This means we'll be behind in tech until we find them and until we have the chance to completely settle our landmass and become a Republic, etc.

Yes, we are at least behind by monotheism, theology, and eng'g. But that may be the extent of the damage, as no one appears to have chivalry or invention, as I'm sure I would have received messages about Templar or Leonardo.

quote: the appearance of a KAI is less likely. It is fortunate as well that they have reached the Middle AGes, as this means neither the Aztecs nor the Iroquois likely had the opportunity to really dominate with their UUs. They all have AA UU as well and hopefully managed to trigger thei GA already. Nonetheless, I would be inclined to watch out for the Iroquois in particular.

Iroquois is strong. They are the only civ relative to whom we have a weak army. Zulu/aztec avg, sumeria & eng strong. Iroq is #1 in land mass too, just beating us out, and #1 in power and score.

quote: Make sure you claim the Spices north, where that Iroquis city sits. You can never have enough luxuries.

Working on it. Definitely want to prevent them from getting their 5th lux.

quote: I guess Nottingham will not flip by culture, eh?

A valiant effort I thought, but no.

quote: Again, agreed. Modo covers the specifics well.

Yes. Thank you both Modo and PB for critiquing and helping me out with my strategy.

All in all, we are doing ok with the attached stats. My prime goal is workers workers now and rev up the infrastructure, both tiles and improvements.

	18-12-2004 22:21									#128
	and the save Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'll probably let this game cool for a while to catch up.

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 350 ad.sav
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	19-12-2004 21:24									#129
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

360 AD: Iroquois attacking Sumeria with MI. Akkad builds settler. Every civ contacted, no one will give monotheism (demanded from Sumer again).
370 AD: Khorsabad founded.
380 AD: Hindana founded. Made RPP with iroquois b/c they were annoyed with us and our galley.
390 AD: Sumeria lost a city; one left. Iroquois still attacking them. Still won't trade monotheism. Tell Wilaya, Karana, Adab, Telloh founded.
400 AD: Moving settlers, workers.
410 AD: Aztecs building Leonardo. Nina founded. Still no trade for techs.
420 AD: Iroquois and Sumeria make peace. Ebla founded.
430 AD: Iroquois building Leonardo.
440 AD: Iroquois complete Sun Tzu. Wonder chain involving Leonardo, Sistine in progress. Barb boat killed.
450 AD: ROP with Zulu. Normally I don't like ROP ever, at all. But since no one is near us, I want people to remain polite for now. Babylon builds marketplace. New Babylon and New Nineveh founded, barb camp cleared, barb boat killed.

EDIT: this is the power chart, in case anyone was unclear

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	19-12-2004 21:24									#130
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save

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 450 ad.sav
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	19-12-2004 22:42									#131
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Comments on the 450 AD save.

• Apart from a slight technological lag, you're doing good. In general, I mean.
  
  
• Still too few Workers. Yes, you have 23 now, but at the same time, you have many more cities. Make more Workers. When a city is idle, make it churn out a Worker. If you can, time it well, so that he's ready when the city grows.
  
  
• You are building Warriors, while in the Medieval Age. Unless you plan a massive upgrade to MedInfs (which is not needed to kill the English, btw), you shouldn't be doing that. Instead, build Spearmen (they upgrade all the way, sou you seldom waste shields on this unit), or Horsemen (you might want to do an invasion with Cavalry later on, and a fast unit is a good quick-response defender). Catapults are useful as well, if you can march them together with defenders (anticipating Feudalism soon, this wouldn't be such a bad idea).
  
  
• You are building units in small cities, and in cities without Barracks. Yes, you might need that in cities that are far from your core, but usually, camps are better. Best would be, if you could get 2 or 3 cities producing 10 unwasted shields, with Barracks. To do this, you need to Mine those Hills and Mountains, or find a big city on flat land. Once this is done, most other cities won't have to worry about building units ever again.
  
  A mixed approach with cities producing units inbetween buildings is not likely to work here, because of lacking tile improvements, and the resulting slow infrastructure development...
  
  
• Many cities are very corrupt. You need to build Courthouses, or those cities will never be any good. Sometimes a Courthouse should be the first build in a city, especially if it doesn't need culture to prevent a flip. Personally, I tend to rush this building.
  
  
• Big cities need Marketplaces. This will greatly increase the value of your luxuries, and will allow you to skip some happiness buildings. Current example of that is London.
  
  
• To further boost efficiency, try using Slaves for Chops and Roads, rather than native Workers. This will lose you less valuable turns.
  
  
• When I was talking about Ellipi as a Worker-pump, I was talking about leaving it at that forever. Or at least until after Railroads are done. You might not like how it looks doing nothing but Workers, but you sure need it. And if not Ellipi, design at least one other city to do this (Nottingham, and Nineveh are possible candidates). Having enough Workers is very, very powerful.

Last edited by Modo44 on 20-12-2004 at 13:15

	19-12-2004 23:53									#132
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Definitely Ellipi as a worker pump. And just leave it going. A worker every 2 turns will get the economy working. It looks to me like the pieces are there but the cities are struggling because of lack of infrastructure. It takes discipline to get the worker force up when there are so many other good things to build, but they are the enabler for everything.

Worker usage is also a key advantage for humans vs. AI. They are no where near as efficient with this flexible unit. Remember that they are also instant population redistibution also if you have the urge to boom a city in a particularly productive location.

Otherwise, good job spreading out and building your city base!

	20-12-2004 13:06									#133
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Wow, lots of things happened while I couldn't play.
I will play ten turns as soon as I arrive home today.

	20-12-2004 17:16									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Apart from a slight technological lag, you're doing good. In general, I mean.

We're trying. Thanks for the comments. We have to get rid of English and start taking on Aztec/Iroquois head on. But you're right, by the numbers, we're not that far behind (surprisingly).

quote: [*]Still too few Workers. Yes, you have 23 now, but at the same time, you have many more cities.

Will continue to work on this. I guess you guys don't count slave laborers, even at half discounted rate in terms of your planning.

quote: [*]You are building Warriors, ...Instead, build Spearmen...or Horsemen...Catapults

All the build orders for each city need to be revamped with a fresh eye. AFAIK the only cities with warrior build are cities not yet connected that are just using that as a temporary placeholder.

quote: camps are better. Best would be, if you could get 2 or 3 cities producing 10 unwasted shields, with Barracks.

Still working on city specialization. just have to figure out which cities will be unit camps. Unfortunately, our production output remains quite low, and we do not have even 2-3 cities with 10 spt.

quote: Many cities are very corrupt. You need to build Courthouses...Big cities need Marketplaces.

Like you say, I agree these should be rushed. However, we are not gaining lots of gpt in an attempt to stay in tech race. Marketplaces were helping with this in terms of cash flow. I still have not mastered how you guys run very positive cash flows on high levels yet. So far we run about -1 to +15 gpt varying with turn (I guess population shifts, unit productions, improvement costs, etc).

quote: [*]To further boost efficiency, try using Slaves for Chops and Roads, rather than native Workers. This will lose you less valuable turns.

Excellent idea.

quote: When I was talking about Ellipi as a Worker-pump, I was talking about leaving it at that forever. Or at least until after Railroads are done. You might not like how it looks doing nothing but Workers, but you sure need it.

Agreed. Ellipi is pretty good for now and w/o aqueduct is a good worker pump for at least this tech era.

Thanks Modo for the comments.

	20-12-2004 17:21									#135
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quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Wow, lots of things happened while I couldn't play. I will play ten turns as soon as I arrive home today.

Emperor Wertyu70, we look forward to your reign today. Hopefully you will find the direction Babylon has taken to your liking, and provide further leadership to our empire's new cities.

	20-12-2004 18:59									#136
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quote: Originally posted by dmd175 Will continue to work on this. I guess you guys don't count slave laborers, even at half discounted rate in terms of your planning.

Only if they come in numbers. Otherwise, they are good for Roads, and nothing else, because most jobs take them forever to finish. It's a bit better if you play an Industrious civ, but native Workers are always more important.

quote: Originally posted by dmd175 All the build orders for each city need to be revamped with a fresh eye. AFAIK the only cities with warrior build are cities not yet connected that are just using that as a temporary placeholder.

This might be dangerous. If you happen to forget that city, it will make that Warrior, as it is a cheap unit. And then you get to pay for it, but you don't get to use it.

quote: Originally posted by dmd175 Like you say, I agree these should be rushed. However, we are not gaining lots of gpt in an attempt to stay in tech race. Marketplaces were helping with this in terms of cash flow. I still have not mastered how you guys run very positive cash flows on high levels yet. So far we run about -1 to +15 gpt varying with turn (I guess population shifts, unit productions, improvement costs, etc).

The reason is very simple. We try to trade and research in a way, that allows us to sell technology to the AI. By the late Medieval Era, +200gpt from the AI is possible to do, and can become much more if conditions allow. In addition, the trades often yield an abundance of luxuries, so that the lux slider is usually at 0%. It is arguably one of the most important skills in this game. Plan your research - consider what technology is the most valuable, not researched by the AI, and try to get it first. Then sell it around, preferably for other technologies, luxuries, then gold. Once you manage that, you should be able to drain the AI treasury, much to the pleasure of your scientists. If you keep falling behind (I think this won't happen in this game, but it's possible against a KAI.), consider buying, or stealing technology, to keep up. Don't bother with non-mandatory techs, except if you can afford to do it, and/or have good reason (Smith's Trading Company, requiring Economy, is often a good reason; so is Cavalry in many strategies).

Until you get a tech lead, you'll have to do with less cash, I'm afraid. For now, try to get Astronomy, so you can trade your luxuries, and resources around (trade routes will be possible over Sea squares). This should bring you some income (50 should be possible).

	20-12-2004 19:24									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 We try to trade and research in a way, that allows us to sell technology to the AI. By the late Medieval Era, +200gpt from the AI is possible to do, For now, try to get Astronomy, so you can trade your luxuries, and resources around (trade routes will be possible over Sea squares). This should bring you some income (50 should be possible).

Agreed. Wertyu, we should try to research techs that the AI won't - if we can figure out what that might be. I already know that Aztecs have theology and invention though.

Astronomy is a great idea - yes, we should target that primarily in order to trade lux to AI for hopefully lots o' gpt.

	20-12-2004 21:02									#138
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Ok, rapid-fire comments here before work, will have lots more time tomorrow. Will not be looking at save, just screens, so bear with errors.

Catapults are always a good idea for 1-2 shield cities that have nothing better to do. Their not worth the investment of any building except a culture generator and maybe Courthouse, if they're still close enough.

About 10spt, Modo is right, that is a great number for buildign almost anything in the game. See if you can rearrange cities such that you can achieve this magical number and also focus teams of Workers towards that goal. 2 10spt cities are better than 3 9spt cities for the better part of the game.

Marketplaces should be top priority once you have the tech, especially if you're Republic or plan to be soon. The generate cash and happiness which in turn generates more ash. Wealth is power.

On the slaves issue, there's no real advantage in using slaves for specific jobs, generally speaking. A worker turn is a worker turn, ven when it's only a half . Do what he says where convenient, like a border town that needs a chop, as the 10 shields are just as good later as now, usually. Also if Workers are far apat it may matter, but in the core Worker stacks should be the rule and for many situations an extra slave in a stack can make a significant difference. I also like to keep slaves in stacks of two or multiples thereof. Oh, and BTW, Industrious slaves work no faster then regular slaves in C3C; this one of the Industrious nerfs and why it really isn't the power trait that some seem to cling to it as.

I believe we're at a reasonable place tech-wise. This is where I would expect someone to be when at their appropriate difficulty level. I would beeline for Printing Press if you're looking for good trade-bait.

That's all for now, back in ~12 hours. Good luck!

	20-12-2004 21:12									#139
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The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one. And it might be more important in this game, because Babylon lacks Workers in general.

When a tile has a Road already, get all the Workers you can muster, to have it improved quickly (4 native Workers for Irrigation, 6 for Mine on flatland).

Last edited by Modo44 on 20-12-2004 at 21:38

	20-12-2004 21:37									#140
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Ok, I'm going home and I''ll start to play...
My goals are:
1) Increase the number of workers
2) Try to rearrenge production to have "Specialized cities"
3) Set Research to a tech that I can trade.

	20-12-2004 21:58									#141
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Oh, and BTW, Industrious slaves work no faster then regular slaves in C3C; this one of the Industrious nerfs and why it really isn't the power trait that some seem to cling to it as. I believe we're at a reasonable place tech-wise. This is where I would expect someone to be when at their appropriate difficulty level. I would beeline for Printing Press if you're looking for good trade-bait.

Thanks for the tip on the slaves w/ industrious. Was not sure about that but suspected it didn't help slave efficiency. There should be a way to convert slaves into bona fide nationals though, just the way that citizens are. I suppose you can do that roundabout by add to city then pop out a worker (hopefully it will come out your civ though). But over time maybe their efficiency should increase pro rata until they are full citizens....

Lots of other ideas here too, like should their be "slaves" in democracy? Does democracy and RP still have beneficial effect on slave labor rates though industrious does not (at least with RP I am pretty sure yes).

EDIT:

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one.

Agree completely. Thanks for forcefully pointing this out. Slaves should be the road horses. Generally after I captured them I think I used them as so, but we should be careful to save our native worker turns from doing roading in totally undeveloped territory.

	20-12-2004 22:07									#142
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Ok, I'm going home and I''ll start to play... My goals are:... 3) Set Research to a tech that I can trade.

Seems like everyone on the board is tilting toward a top track research path.

That means after we get monotheism in 4 turns IIRC, we get theology next. Possible Sumeria could have it, and maybe we could try stealing from them or someone else. Unfortunately we have little cash; thus unlikely we can trade for it too.

But after theology...(education &) music theory, (education &) astronomy, or printing press? I myself always like to get music theory and JS Bach's. Moot point if we are continuing to shun wonders this game. Modo makes good point about usefulness of astronomy, while PB advocates for PP. Can music theory be traded to the same extent as PP? I really don't know because I tend to hold it until 1 turn before I put up JS Bach. We can also get education and be sure to trade to Iroquois (I believe) to negate GL (they captured it from Sumer I think). Unlikely that this tech choice will come up in next 10 turns, but I'm interested in figuring out how you guys might play this.

	21-12-2004 02:53									#143
	Inflate your Upload Space

450 AD:
First of all, I had a look at the empire, it was quite a long time since I have seen it.
As suggested, cities producing warrior switched to spearmen or catapult
New Ashur founded
London Galley south, exploring the continent.
Try so group worker in gang to speed up tile improvement (4 worker irrigating together = 1 tile improved in 1 turn)
My main Goal for these 10 turn : Try so set tiles so that cities produce 5 or 10 shield, to optimize production.

460 AD:
Ellipi procuced worker (set to build mine to increase shiled production). I want Ellipi to have 5 shiled and 5 food per turn, to let it become a 2 turn worker pump.

470 AD:
Nothing to say, Aztecs offer us Mnotheism for 60 gold, I refuse because we will discover it next turn.

480 Monotheism!. Try to trade to get Teology but Sumerians don't have it and the others don't want to trade. Set science to get it soon running a little deficit.
Babylon switched from Colosseum to Cathedral.

490 AD
2 new worker ready, set them to join other group and work together.
Nottingham produced granary and started worker.
Uruk switched from courthaus to marketplace.

500 AD Niniveh produced marketplace, start settler to fill the empty space on the north peninsula.

510 AD:
Nimrud produced temple, I dont' know what to build next, so I build a horseman.
Zamua produced granary, start barracks (for future military production)
New ellipi founded, building spearman.

520 AD Babylon build cathedral. I don't know what todo, since it has a barracks I start producing a Medioeval Infantry.
Ellipi produced a worker.
We heard the Zulus are building Leo.

530 AD Niniveh produced settler -> Cathedral.
Settler toward north.
Nottingham worker. Corruption is high, start corthouse.

540 AD:
Ellipi produced worker.
Coventry spearmen -> Next temple to expand city borders with culture.
Iroquois are building Knight Templar.
Zulu Completed Sistine.

550 AD:
Eulbar harbor, next Marketplace
Shruppak marketplace, next barracks.
new niniveh worker, since production is only 1 shield I set it to produce another worker.

Now, we are near teology, I tried to set cities to produce 5 or 10 shield per turn and worker are grouped together.

Good luck to the next emperor

	21-12-2004 02:55									#144
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The saved game:

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 550 ad.sav
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	21-12-2004 02:59									#145
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Core cities:

Attachment: 550ad_1.jpg
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	21-12-2004 03:00									#146
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West region:

Attachment: 550ad_2.jpg
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	21-12-2004 03:16									#147
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Looking good wertyu.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 450 AD: As suggested, cities producing warrior switched to spearmen or catapult

Nice.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 470 AD: Nothing to say, Aztecs offer us Mnotheism for 60 gold, I refuse because we will discover it next turn.

Very convenient of them, huh?

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 480 Monotheism!. Try to trade to get Teology but Sumerians don't have it and the others don't want to trade.

As expected...but looks like research is going well. By my count, it will be onlyabout 10 turns to theology. Once we get universities established we will be in good shape. Again though, what path after theology? Anyone? Education to MT, or astro, or PP??

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 510 AD: Nimrud produced temple, I dont' know what to build next, so I build a horseman.

Nimrud is very close to english capital, so I guess military units make the most sense to prevent any possible flip, but local culture is also important.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 520 AD Babylon build cathedral. I don't know what todo, since it has a barracks I start producing a Medioeval Infantry.

maybe a prebuild for university? or wonder? or even HE.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Corruption is high, start corthouse.

Yeah, we definitely need more of these.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Iroquois are building Knight Templar. Zulu Completed Sistine.

At least they wasted time going for chivalry. I say wasted because by the time we fight any of them, knights will likely be obsolete.

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Now, we are near teology, I tried to set cities to produce 5 or 10 shield per turn and worker are grouped together. Good luck to the next emperor

Nice work wertyu. Impressive run to theology. I will play, hopefully tonight, more likely tomorrow early AM (xmas parties tonight).

	21-12-2004 04:05									#148
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Comments on the 550 AD save

• 30 Workers. The trend is good, keep it up.
  
• You have Feudalism, the Engilsh don't. Consider preparing a final war for them. 10 MediInf and some support (Trebuchets, Pikemen, even Horsemen) should do the job. The longer you wait, the longer that territory isn't working for you.
  
• Consider rushing a Temple in Telloh. It's not high priority, but it would give that island access to both Whales. Also, send a unit or two over there. The AI knows which cities aren't defended, and will capture it, if you get into a war.
  
• I'm sure this was said before, but Grasslands should usually by Mined, and Plains Irrigated. Until you have Mined all those Hills and Mountains, the flatland should give you some shield capacity. mine only the Plains that would give you too much food. You want to have as many tiles as possible producing at least 1 shield. This will be very important, once you are in Golden Age, or in Mobilization. Only the tiles with at least 1 shield will get another one as a bonus.
  
• Worker bands are great, but not for roading. Do I get to repeat the whole argument now?
  
• And another argument to be repeated (I think). Except in very early game, don't build units without Barracks. Bombard units are an exception, because they don't get experience levels.
  
• Try not to build Settlers and Workers in cities larger than size 6. They need twice the food of a size-6 city to grow, so it's a big waste to lose that citizen. I know it's sometimes contrary to my previous "build Workers everywhere", but nobody said this game is easy. At the same time, build Workers or Settlers, if a city has too many citizens, and needs Specialists because of that.
  
• If you don't know what to do with a coastal city, try a Harbor. It will need one sooner or later in most cases.
  
• Nineveh has a Barracks, can do 8spt, and even keep a +5 food surpulus to grow to size 7 quickly, if some citizens are moved. 8spt is useful for your current units, almost as much as 10spt. It loses only 2 shields when building a Pikeman, or Catapult, and it loses no shields, when building a MedInf. I guess you have a Barracks city for now. And it could even have 10spt soon...
  
• Babylon can do 15spt, if you try a bit harder (has 14spt now). That's a Pikeman every 2 turns... Or a Horseman, for future upgrades... Yes, you do have a second Barracks city.

	21-12-2004 09:00									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one. And it might be more important in this game, because Babylon lacks Workers in general.

You have a point about moving Workers onto unroaded tiles, but, IMO, roads are the far most important tile improvements. Cities that are not connected to the capital take corruption hits. We're Republic, so worked tiles not beside river are losing ~2gpt. That's potentially 6gpt every time you use a slave instead of a Worker. It's too important right now, but roads also allow units to travel faster to fronts, etc. It's really far too situational to say to not use Workers for roads. Chops, fine, assuming you can use the ten shields just as well later as sooner.

	21-12-2004 09:26									#150
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quote: Originally posted by dmd175 But after theology...(education &) music theory, (education &) astronomy, or printing press? I myself always like to get music theory and JS Bach's. Moot point if we are continuing to shun wonders this game. Modo makes good point about usefulness of astronomy, while PB advocates for PP. Can music theory be traded to the same extent as PP? I really don't know because I tend to hold it until 1 turn before I put up JS Bach. We can also get education and be sure to trade to Iroquois (I believe) to negate GL (they captured it from Sumer I think). Unlikely that this tech choice will come up in next 10 turns, but I'm interested in figuring out how you guys might play this.

Music Theory can be traded as well as PP, give or take (Assuming JSB's hasn't been built). Printing Press can be researched much sooner and is really the "opportunity tech" og the Middle Ages. Generally, it is the tech at which Deity games become won or lost for me. Researching Education first ruins your chance of monopoly. Being Scientific helps here, but generally the AI will have up to Edu. and Gunpowder at least. Your opportunity lies in the AI's initial beeline towards Gunpowder. They stop at Chemistry because it looks like a nothing tech, the AI only sees its value as being unlocking two techs; it does not see the techs behind it. Similarly, it sees PP as a nothing tech; it only gives one preq and a civ ability, and on top of that its an optional tech. First tier techs usually get around quickly enough because of the Science trait, and after that it sees units in Chivalry, Invention and Gunpowder. Theology also shows a GW, and Edu gives an improvement. So you only need to research two techs while the AI research/trade on the cheap for 5. BTW, although trading Edu to the civ is not a bad idea, it's usually not that important and not worth choosing it for. As I say, it won't be expensive for the AI to buy it from each other, and money in AI hands is in AI hands.

BTW, Writing and Scientific Method are also pivotal techs. Writing as another opportunity tech, particularly one at 50-turn speed, and Scientific Method for the knockout blow in the Industrial Age, doubling the efficiency of your factories.