21-12-2004 09:42									#151
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"Now, we are near teology, I tried to set cities to produce 5 or 10 shield per turn and worker are grouped together."

Ten is a great number, and five works too, but it's not as important. Nine and 11 are both poor numbers up until Knights, at least. Nine is only useful for things 40 shields and over compared to eight, 11 for 70 and up compared to ten (well, it would be good for 55 and 65 too, if there were such things). With any numbers around five you probably want the highest spt possible. You can always MM to the nth degree, of course, but if you're not excpecting the city to grow or get a mine, etc., consider looking at what you're building compared to what you're producing. A common example would be Spearmen/Archers, where five is as good as six.

	21-12-2004 17:56									#152
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 BTW, Writing and Scientific Method are also pivotal techs. Writing as another opportunity tech, particularly one at 50-turn speed, and Scientific Method for the knockout blow in the Industrial Age, doubling the efficiency of your factories.

Whoa, I must have missed something about scientific method? I never heard anything like this and can't find anything about this in the civilopedia. Are you referring to SM --> TOE --> AE + Elec --> Hoovers?

	21-12-2004 18:07									#153
	550-570 :( Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

550 AD: Looked around empire. MM'd every city. Brought gold from -6 to 0 gpt. Three cities switched to temple that were building units w/o barracks and where border expansion was key. Nimrud to barracks before units. We've got a lot of swordmen sitting at English border. I would like to start bringing them into upgrade to MI. Problem is 30 gold a piece. Upgraded 1 this turn in London.

Contacted all of our friends. Demanded monarchy and money from England and Sumer with no luck. No one else will trade techs with us. Hiawatha is the only one with chivalry, furthering his KAI status if he chooses to use knights.

560 AD: Galleys exploring. Babylon makes MI. Next in 4 turns. I MM to get 14 spt instead of 12, so we can kick it out in 3 turns. This comes at the cost of switching one plains from irr to mined, which costs us 1 gpt in babylon, which came out of entertainment. Net result babylon had 3 unhappy and now has 4 unhappy.

Sci slider down 10% to get 27 gpt for this turn instead of 0.

570 AD: Iroquois build Knights Templar. Theology obtained. We can get eng'g in 9, PP or chiv in 10, or educ in 15. We go for PP as discussed on the board. 10 turn pace, 3 gpt positive. Oh no, change of plans ?!?!? See pic.

Attachment: 570.jpg
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	21-12-2004 21:02									#154
	570 AD - 750 AD :) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Because of this tech research treachery by Aztec and Iroquois, we must reevaluate strategy. PP will now only have value to trade to Zulu. We cannot expect it to mean anything to England and Sumer, if they are still around. That means we will get one tech maybe from Zulu. We are not researching Chivalry b/c we can defend for now and will likely have cav by the time any major offensive is underway. Everyone has eng'g and we can get that anytime. I thus propose education for now, possibly MT next if it looks like London can put up JSB. BTW, London has just passed # shields required for HE. With education, I'll try to time prebuilds for Universities in at least Babylon, Nineveh.

Eridu galley sinks barb galley. New Akkad founded on N peninsula. Now +5gpt.

580 AD: Iroquois come offering ROP. They actually will give us 1gpt for it. Ok, sold.

590 AD: Moving workers. MM'd all cities to get from educ in 13 turns/7gpt to 12 turns,12gpt.

600 AD: Akkad courthouse --> granary. Zamua temple --> settler.

610 AD: Tenochtitlan builds Leonardo.

620-630 AD:

640 AD: Zulu get PP, a few turns before we would have gotten it. So in retrospect, in this particular instance, PP would have not worked very well for us. I also spotted an Iroquois musket. Thus we are about 5 techs behind (eng'g, PP, inv, gun, chiv; 6 if you count monarchy).

650 AD: Upgraded two more swords. Temple in Telloh. Ready to attack England. Educ in five turns, switch Bab and Nineveh to univ prebuilds. No one else has education.

660 AD: Demand Oxford from English. No dice. Educ in 4.

670 AD: Ellipi builds courthouse, and now gets 10 sh uncorrupt = 1 turn worker pump if needed. Zamua builds library. Educ in 2 turns. Iroquois have education, upgrade sci to get it next turn for trade.

England sent out galley and in MA. Declare war this turn. Archer killed by elite sword, got 2 more slaves. Two more slaves captured. IX Corps W.

680 AD: Spear attacked SE of Hastings, defends vs. archer and promoted. Vet MI 36 of Warwick attacked by two archers, no hp lost, promoted to elite. English archers are buzzing around NW of York. MI #1 beats down Hastings spear, -2hp. Another Hastings spear killed, MI-2hp. Sword vet attacks Hastings, kills spear, -2hp. Elite sword attacks and kills, -1hp.
Warwick spear killed, vet MI -3hp. Reg MI kills Warwick spear, -1hp. Vet MI kills warwick 3 spear -2hp. 2 archers remain in Warwick? IX Corps beats down Oxford archer, -3hp. Army unscathed kills Warwick archer; attacks again, -3hp, takes Warwick. Spear up to defend MI. MI moving on York.

Education obtained. Universities going up in Bab, Nineveh, Shurrupak, Uruk. Music theory in 11 turns, 8gpt positive.

Education can give us either PP or eng'g from either Aztec or Zulu (Iroquois have education). I think we should skip PP for now, and try to obtain eng'g and maybe invention? I traded to Aztec first for eng'g and 90 gold. Zulu then is "close to deal" for invention trade for education and 115 gold. Maybe I will wait until next turn, even though we can get PP and 3 gold for education right now. I think it is safe to wait because Zulu has nothing to trade Aztec or Iroquois for education (tech, 3 gold, no excess lux or resources). AI is hanging on to monarchy and will not trade it .

690 AD: Zulu come offering PP for education. Still no deal for invention, so refused. Now comes our turn, Zulu will trade invention for educ and 128 gold. So the dilemma - even trade educ for PP, or educ for invention and we're out 128 gold. Invention gets us closer to gunpowder, IA, cav, and Newton's. PP won't be useful for a slightly longer time until we are ready to revolt to democracy. I've noted though that democracy does not provide such a big commercial/corruption advantage over republic; and the main advantage is worker eff. I wonder if it even makes sense in every game to head for democracy and just not stay at republic. Thus right or wrong, we are buying invention from zulu.

Now we are behind monarchy, PP, and gunpowder (and Iroquois have chivalry). To me, that's really a deficiency of 1 tech. And for some reason, Aztec are polite to us now - I guess it was trading with them.

IX Corps killed. MI S of Hastings killed. MI attacks York, kills spear, -2hp. MI kills archer E of Warwick, -1hp, no promote. Elite sword kills Hastings spear, -3hp. MI Hastings S kills last defending spear in Hastings. We will probably take casualties from Archer counter. Sword from Coventry toward Hastings; warrior from Nimrud too. Vet sword at Hastings W kills exposed archer. Army moves to York after fortifications arrive in Warwick and capturing slave on the way.

700 AD: Hastings builds spear. Hastings MI @S kills it. 3/4 spear attacks Hastings for KO, but dies. 1/5 elite sword finishes job and takes curragh with him.
Army attacks Warwick and captures it. MI watching lone English archer coming from Oxford.

710 AD: New Uruk founded. Resistance over in York.

720 AD: Civil disorder in York, resistance over in Hastings and Warwick. Babylon builds university. New Eridu founded. England killed a spear and recaptures a slave. I kill that archer and will have my slave, thank you. Actually I'm going to run an experiment and not capture it right away, but have it basically boxed in. I hate when AI workers disappear after they capture them from you, so I'm going to see what happens. MM'd all cities: London has 407 shields, 600 needed for JSB. Got extra 1gpt from MM. (oh wow!)

730 AD: Courthouse in Samarra. Harbor in Eridu. Iroquois building Copernicus. We still cannot trade with them.
Slave recaptured. MI at the gates of oxford, kills a spear, -2 hp.

740 AD: Nineveh builds univ. New Samarra founded.

750 AD: Eulbar mkt. New Bab temple. Oxford captured by army = english dead = street cred. MM'd all cities. Getting English citizens working took turn off MT and added 9gpt.

Attachment: power.jpg
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	21-12-2004 21:05									#155
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Uhm , they haven't education, maybe we can try to get it ASAP.
Have you tried to buy Printing Press from them?

EDIT : Sorry, cross post...

Last edited by wertyu70 on 21-12-2004 at 21:47

	21-12-2004 21:05									#156
	Western Front Increase Your PM Length

The Western half of our empire, showing off the new lands conquered in the Anglo-Babylonian smackdown of 730 AD.

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	21-12-2004 21:06									#157
	East Put an end to popups!

The Eastern half, showing development of the NE frontier and southern Arctic zone.

Attachment: power.jpg
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	21-12-2004 21:15									#158
	Save Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Review of previous 20 turns:

• Pop from 4.5M to 7.95M (#1)
  
• GNP up 50% from 402M to 608M. (#1)
  
• Mfg 103M to 140M. (#2)
  
• Land area 40300 to 50500. (#1)
  
• Annual income 12, stable. (#1)
  
• Productivity 408 to 564 (#1)

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 750 ad.sav
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	21-12-2004 21:19									#159
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Uhm , they haven't education, maybe we can try to get it ASAP. Have you tried to buy Printing Press from them?

Wertyu, just saw your post snuck in here. I did get education ASAP and traded for eng'g and invention. I thought it better to get invention vs. PP for now. We are a few turns from MT, which hopefully we can trade (see above).

	21-12-2004 21:24									#160
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Looks good.

The thing about Printing Press versus Education is not certain, as you noted. Might be some civ traits rule over this choice for the AI. At least you knew about it before starting the research, so everything went well. Checking possible trades often is very important, as you can see.

Getting Engineering and Invention was a good move. It's usually best to get mandatory techs first.

I was talking about Democracy, but only because you are playing a Religious civ. You can afford to switch, because of the short Anarchy period, otherwise it might not be so useful. The overall boost will be visible because of the sheer size of the empire, that's for sure. For now, I'd try to get a firm lead in the tech race, and only then go for Democracy, preferably by getting it from the AI. It will come in handy, once you start on Railrads.

Last edited by Modo44 on 21-12-2004 at 21:31

	21-12-2004 21:30									#161
	Culture graph question Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Please take a look at the culture graph attached.

I'm really interested in what caused our rate of culture growth to decline (green oval). You can see there is a pronounced drop in the rate of culture increase sometime before 550 AD. The only explanation is that other civs started massive cultural improvements at this time - cathedrals I guess?

The pink oval is relatively easily explained I think - education shuts off TOA for Aztecland. Should have built temples, Montezuma

EDIT: Darn, forgot culture graph and cannot attach it by editing. See next post. Guess Montezuma has his "revenge".

	21-12-2004 21:31									#162
	graph Tired of ads?

the graph

Attachment: power.jpg
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	21-12-2004 21:36									#163
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Shifts like that in a relativistic graph are not easy to identify the causes of. It could be any of a million things.

	21-12-2004 21:38									#164
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that Monotheism can be the reason here. Aztecs and Iroquis are both Agricultural, so they should have big cities by now. And, since they didn't seem to have many wars, they are probably in heavy builder mode. This means that many of their cities switched to Cathedrals shortly after they got Monotheism. A similar thing happens, when Scientific AI gets Education.

	22-12-2004 13:00									#165
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Questions:
Now we have a whole continent for us.
My standard strategy on lower level is:
1) switch to "builder mode"
2) Wait until we get Cavalry (a lot)
or Infantry+Artillery
3) Start the invasion
Is this strategy right for this kind of game?
Or should we try to manage an early attack?
I fear that attacking zulus as dmd175 suggested is risky,
because Iroquis are near to them...

	22-12-2004 13:35									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think it depends on your general approach. You should be able to win the game any way you like, so you need to choose.

If it's Domination, or Conquest, then build only basic infrastructure (a couple Univesities would be good, but only in core cities), get Barracks everywhere, and make lots of units. Attack with whatever you have at the moment, you don't really want to wait very long. And remember that bombard units are very important for taking cities with few losses. Don't switch to Democracy, because War Weariness will kill you.

If you want a peaceful win, then get a defensive force, and then start building. This means most structures available, up to Universities, and sometimes Banks, in every city that has any decent production. In this case Democracy is definately the way to go.

	22-12-2004 14:52									#167
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by wertyu70 Questions: Now we have a whole continent for us. My standard strategy on lower level is: 1) switch to "builder mode" 2) Wait until we get Cavalry (a lot) or Infantry+Artillery 3) Start the invasion Is this strategy right for this kind of game? Or should we try to manage an early attack? I fear that attacking zulus as dmd175 suggested is risky, because Iroquis are near to them...

That's about my standard spaceship/ no rush conquest strategy. But we are actually not that far from a domination victory (not that close either I guess ). Anyway, AU seems to be about improving our skills and pushing the limit of those skills. Here my goal is to win by the biggest margin as early as possible (I'm flexible though). I think we can put down the Zulu and would not face Iroquois repercussion. Once we get astronomy we can make Iroquois an offer they can't refuse (or at least break). Then the domination would probably involve killing either most or all of Aztec or Iroquois. However, since that attack will definitely require cavalry, when we attack Zulu is possibly a moot point, as we could send all units over there in one shot.

quote: Originally posted by ModoI think it depends on your general approach. You should be able to win the game any way you like, so you need to choose.

I think this game is going ok, and I think given time we can win it with domination or conquest, maybe spaceship. Whatever you guys want to do is fine by me.


Back in a few days. Best wishes to all.

	22-12-2004 21:20									#168
	Suffering from ads?

I'm going to play 10 turns tonight, but I'll be able to post the result and the save game only tomorrow.
I hope to keep up the good job by dmd175.

A question for veterans:
How many units and which kind of mix (defenders, attacker, bombards) is better for an attack at this stage?

	22-12-2004 21:43									#169
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You'll get a lot of different opinions on armed forces mix.

Me, I figure war is basically about attacking. Before starting I figure out which direction (flank) I am going to attack on. I build a strong force of infantry-type defenders to hold the "hinge" cities. I put all my high production cities onto knights/cav/tanks and let them crank. I put a few of my slow production cities into defenders. Until artillery, I am not too interested in cannon type units except as prebuilds for artillery. Can't have too much artillery. About 20 is a good number there.

In any case, the pattern of the war will be:
You start the war and (hopefully) overrun a city or two.
The AI pulls the million and one units that it has managed to build and throws them blindly at one of your cities that it likes the best or thinks is weakest.
You turtle up and use your offensive units on a strategic defensive until you have massacred the rush.
Then you turn the offense loose. Thus, my answer to the "mix" for an attack is - almost all into attack units. I'll build defenders later when I am relaxing in the gardens of my enemies former imperial palace.

	22-12-2004 22:14									#170
	Got spare money?

I recently started enjoying bombard units. Even Catapults can do much damage, and starting with Trebuchets, they becoem really important. The problem with offensive units (Knights, Cavalry, Tanks) is, they attack normally, and they can die. If a defender has full HP, this gets bad. Even worse if you have to attack a strong defender. Knights against Knights is a nightmare. Same goes for hard-to-get positions, like big cities on hills. Bombing them all down can do a lot to minimize losses.

For every fast-mover, I build a defender with a bombard unit. I'm able to hide the fast-mover from counter-attacks (it's often more expensive, than the defender). I'm able to move slowly, if the terrain dictates, while staying very safe. I'm albe to weaken any counter-attackers (bombard), and then kill them off with little own casualties. I get a big improvement when attacking strong defenders and/or heavily fortified cities. I get my objectives for sure, and fairly cheap. The downside is, defenders and bombard units are slow, so the invasion takes longer. I still like it very much, because I really hate losing any units.

Fast-movers are good for blitzing the enemy. Cavalry and Modern Armor are best, but others can do very well too. What you need is a load of those units before the war starts. Then just go on attacking, concentrating large numbers of units on single targets. After a target is taken, move to the next one, and ponder until it's yours. Build few defenders, only to have a skeletal force for the new cities. If prepared correctly, this can eradicate a civ very fast. One really bad side of this tactic is the huge cost. Fast-movers are expensive, and many will die, both in attacks, and enemy counter-attacks. This means, that once you get stalled, it's best to sign peace. Otherwise your high attrition rates will be very difficult to overcome.

	22-12-2004 22:36									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I am no expert but my 2 cents.

Unless their are some specific exceptions, I have a tech advantage over an opponent, or its a very early rush, I reckon to have over 50% bombard units:

- cheap to build(relative to attackers), dont need a barracks
- upgrade all the way to artillery
- using them, I dont loose attackers, and the investment
- using them attackers are facing low/1 hp units, so I need many less, they have a greater chance of surviving, promotion, and MGLs
- 'cause I am not loosing many units, production in the core can switch back to buildings earlier

I have had too many 'charge of the light brigade' situations where my prized attackers have burnt themselves out on a couple of cities, or suffered from counter attacks when unsupported, and I much prefer to capture a significant portion of my target a little slower. The defenders are needed to protect the main stack (just a couple), and hold captured cities, dont want to waste knights defending (I never bring enough, and always end up doing this...)

	22-12-2004 22:56									#172
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Given your position, the best way to end the game quickly and "win big" (i.e. get a high score) would have been to beeline directly for Military Tradition once you hit the Medieval era. With most of your cities producing Horsemen in the meanwhile (and one dedicated to Leo's), you would have no problem completely overrunning the rest of the world.

I know this may sound like a boring strategy ("You mean I just forget all the other Medieval era Wonders!?", "What about Universities"!?"), it is IMO the most sound given what you managed to do with the English so early on.

Last edited by Dominae on 22-12-2004 at 23:46

	22-12-2004 23:05									#173
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As for army composition debate, IMO the two units that need no real support are Cavalry and Modern Armor; build enough of those and there is no need for bombardment or defensive units.

Mind you, if you set things up right (for instance, attack multiple cities at once with Medieval Infantry after you declare war, or declare war then lure the AI's troops into the open to pick off with your Horsemen), you can very often get away with having just one type of unit (Horses and no Iron is not the end of the world!).

Although mixed-unit forces do provide some nice benefits, IMO they are a "nice to have", not an "must have".

	22-12-2004 23:28									#174
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yep. I agree with Dom.

	23-12-2004 12:53									#175
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thanks for the suggestion but I need some more advice.
In my Monarch games In the middle ages I can deal with my enemies
with a stack of 5 defenders, 10 bombard units and 20 knights.
At Emperor Level I think this is not enough
(besides, I didn't fight the English, dmd175 defeated them) so I'm wondering how many units I need to fight a medieval war.

In the meantime I think it's better to build a lot of bombard units (I like them a lot)

Unfortunately, due to some unexpected events, I couldn't not play yesterday and I think my next game session will be after xmas...

	23-12-2004 21:24									#176
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Truthfully wert, I never build fire units before artillery except as prebuilds. I build a flock of knights if that is what I have. I rarely fight wars without a technology edge or production edge. The trick is not how many knights or cav you start with but how many you finish with. You need enough to get the war started and blunt the AIs counterattack, but you really need a steady feeder of new units so that your attack continues to grow. Creeping attacks are just too slow. When you fight a war, fight the war - don't try to build and fight.

As Dom says, if you are not comfortable with knight warfare, then beeline to Cav. You certainly ought to be able to beat your enemies with that unit. Attacking is about speed and about pressuring the enemy.

In my opinion, starting a war by building 1 movement and 1 range cannon is putting yourself on the defensive already. If you are going up against a stronger enemy and want to draw them onto your guns for a while in order to whittle down their reserves, that works. Once you start moving on their cities, you want offensive units. War is about violence, not about playing chess. The fundamentals, turning flanks, overwhelming your enemy at weak points, deception, all work to some degree in CIVIII also.

OK, rant off. Maybe I need to find a save game and try to demonstate...

	23-12-2004 22:05									#177
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I managed to play 5 turns:

760 AD:
Ashur builds courthouse, start marketplace
Korshadad is without barracks and is building a pikeman -> switch production to trebuchet.

770 AD:
Sumeria declare war on zulus (Suicide attitude...)
Niniveh build horseman an start another one
I plan to upgrade horseman to knight and use them to attack our next target.

780 AD:
During his turn, Iroquis leader come to us and tell offer us a ROP.
We accept it for 2 gpt more.
We discover Music Theory. Let's try to trade.
Uhm, Noone want to give us astronomy.
Ok, let's try to get something valueable.
Iroquis: Get PP,Gunpowder, 7gpt and 8 gold.
Aztecs: Chivarly, 1gpt, 8gold
Zulu: 5 gpt, 18 gold

London convert to Bach
Babylon build Mediaeval Infantry and sstart another one.
Carchemish courthouse is ready, start marketplace.

What research next?
During trade I discover that Aztecs and Iroquis have already Chemistry (impossible to get it with trade),
so I start Banking ( 7 turns, -37 gpt)

790 AD
Sumerian destroyed by zulus.
Akkad Marketplace, has only 5 shield but a good trade -> start library
Eridu libray, start marketplace
Tell Wilaga build worker, it is poor city, so strat another worker.

800 AD
Banking in 5 turn and -39 gpt.
Zama Marketpklace, start university.

And now it's over for the time being.
Let's see you after xmas.

Question to dmd175 and other player:
Why our army has only a warrior inside?
Why don't to fill it with a couple of Medieaval Infantry?

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 800 ad.sav
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	28-12-2004 01:29									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I won't be able to play at least for a week. I'm out of internet access land (in a public library right now, limited to 1 hour of access ).

Anyway, our army has only one warrior because I wanted to get a victorious army as soon as I got the leader. So I loaded someone in and started to kick a$$.

As far as combined arms, I wonder if the money and production is not better spent at just making all of our best, fast units. I rarely if ever attack with combined arms. I hate having movement "penalties". Some people on the board have hinted at this. For example, why not just attack with all cavs instead of trying a mix of cavs and cannons. I know this is not true to real life war strategy, but in civ, my mantra is speed kills. And it works...blitzkreig anyone?

I do sometimes have combined defenders/bombard for defense, but I find it too slow for offense the way I like to run it.

I know combined arms is touted a lot on 'poly. Can't say I've really ever used it to a great extent (except some of the C3C scenarios). Do other people -- shudder the thought -- not use combined arms religiously on offense.

	28-12-2004 02:07									#179
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I almost never use combined arms, except in the early Industrial era, where Artillery, Cavalry and Infantry each play critical roles. I wish the situation were similar in the other eras.

Edit: What I mean to say is that I never plan to use combined arms, but I usually do because of upgrade paths and such. For instance, I often find myself with a bunch Medieval Infantry left over from the Ancient era alongside the Horsemen that I am building to upgrade to Cavalry, and of course I use both units if war breaks out. But I do not actively go with certain proportions, like 20% Pikemen, 20% Trebuchet, 15% Medieval Infantry and 45% Knights; I prefer to just have 90+% Knights!

	28-12-2004 02:18									#180
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I do not tout combine arms either. I use it when I have to either because of the make up of my troops or lack resources or I must attack stacks that otherwise would hurt my stack a great deal.

In the main I prefer to use fast movers and that includes armies, which could be mixed, but seldom are.

I tend to have fewer bombarment units (cat/cannon/arts) as I look at it that I would rather build an attack unit than a cat.

If I have a choice of 2 swords and 2 cats or 3 swords, I take the swords. So I am loathed to build cat in most case. My feeling is that 2 attackers could get past the 2 defenders and 2 cats, where they cannot get past 3 defenders with no cats.

If they were spears instead of swords, I could not even go on the offense against attackers.