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Senethro
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I'm sure this topic has been done to death but I would like to re-open it just to see if any new ideas have surfaced. I'll just be posting my general view of the ability of a faction to win and then some of my ideas on bringing the laggers up to par.
Morgan- Weak but with some incredble tricks.
Hive- strong
Gaia- weak to average
Uni- average
Believers- v. poor endgame but otherwise a strong if somwhat offbeat option
PKs- Just fine.
Sparta- weak to average.
With the exception of the good Chairman, I'd say the original Smac factions are pretty balanced. I'd argue that all matchups across all maptypes average out as being won 5-5 or 6-4 between equally skilled players.
CyCon- Strong
Pirates- Another nonstandard faction. They're certainly average at the very least.
Drones- Strong.
Angeli- Bugged. Otherwise fine
Cult- v. weak
A group of strong factions, balanced between themselves (except for the cult) but degrading several original Smac factions.
Some changes that could be made:
Cult:
-possible improvements include +1 police, impunity for Green or all units gain empath song with tech discovery. The general aim of these improvements would be to make Police state/green a very viable option for the cult. With worms doing double police duty early game wormfishing could provide a police force to ignore drone control facilities and take the edge off of -1 econ and industry. +3 police with Police state would give the police effect doubled. See where I'm going with this? Nice to have but hardly making him a Yang. The impunity to Green or robust growth would just be increasing the viability of policestate/green.
I wouldn't be surprised if Cult was still weak after that though and perhaps one of a morale/support/probe increase would be necessary but not necessarily fitting with faction personality.
Sparta:
Sandtiago is a definite contender and would only need the most minor of improvements to be average. I had three options to pick and choose from in mind.
1. Free command centre on discovery of doctrine loyalty, maybe at the loss of 1 morale.
2. Impunity Power - self explanatory. I never saw the Spartans as foaming at the mouth like the Believers or brainwashed like the Hive, but as highly trained and professional. A war faction that can go to war without a necessarily requiring war government would add variety.
3: All units become trained with discovery of tech.
I'm not sure how to buff Gaia or morgan. Maybe free biology lab on tech for Gaia? They're pretty worthless.
I wonder if Morgan needs improvement. Humans seem to do well with him.
Neither do I know how to pull the teeth out of Domai and Yang.
I think the CyCon could happily lose one efficiency point and be brought down to peacekeeper equivalent.
One interesting idea I heard for fixing the angels was robust probe, allowing them to run knowledge + covert ops centre and have +3 probe each base.
Peaceful discussion please. The idea is to make weak factions better at what they do best and improving all factions rather than breaking them. Adding unusual functionality would be better than simply giving them industry increase.
Last edited by Senethro on 12-12-2004 at 07:53
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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:17
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No offense, but I think you are way off on a couple of these. Now I only play single player, so these may need multi-play readjustments, I wouldn't know.....
Morgan- Weak?? More like Strong. Try running Morgan under either Demo/Green/Wealth, or Fundy/Green/Wealth during war. Morgan is the only faction which can get the coveted +2 Econ, and a +4 Efficiency, while at pacifist-free war, also capturing worms. If you ask me, Morgan ranks right up there with Univ, Drones, and Hive.
Hive- Strong, agreed.
Gaia- Not weak at all. Their +2 Eff with the 2 nuts for fungus squares make them a expansion juggernaut. This is one of the few factions that doesn't seem to benefit from ICS that much. So spread out, but do it fast.
Uni- Average????!!!!! Are you completely mad??? Next to the Drones this is the strongest faction in the whole game. I'd be willing to say THE strongest.
Believers- Average in early game, weak closer to mid game. The only viable strategy I have found with this faction (other than getting lucky and landing next to a builder faction) is to build fleets of formers with the extra support.
PKs- Perfect example of a base line faction, wonderfully/pitifully average.
Sparta- I put them closer to weak than average....unless they get the CN and BF and start churning out 2 move cheap infantry by the dozens, then watch out.
CyCon- Strong, agreed.
Pirates- I say they are a weak faction, though I hate playing against them cause they are so hard to finish them off. I call em "the cancer" and tried to make a land based equivalent of them called "Planet Cancer", but it ended up being too close to the Gaians.
Drones- Very Strong. There only draw back is technology, which can be stolen with probe teams which they make 20% faster than any one else.
Angels- Average at best. Personally, I'd rather play Morgan and use the same probe rape tactics. I'd probably say a firm average if they weren't bugged. Plus I have read if you get the EG then the techs will roll in from other factions, but I have yet to see this happen. Maybe I was too far ahead in the tech race.
Cult- VERY Weak. No argument here, these guys are as lame as their leaders name. If Psi combat were really expanded in SMAX, they would have been worth it. Instead they are hamper with BOTH Spartan and Hive weaknesses for what? Worm police?? They don't even get the Gaian 2 nuts of fungus bonus. Hay-Zeus! What were the developers thinking when they designed these guys? Really you could have an entire post dedicated to repairing this maligned faction.
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Senethro
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No offence taken, the whole purpose of this thread was to get responses and acquire more data. The best possible result would be that enough people respond so that a mod can be created that rebalances multiplayer to allow more factions to compete on the same level, but discussion is interesting nonetheless.
What I would really like to hear are possible solutions. Here is a draft list attempting to move all factions to Uni level or just below.
Morgan- Testing would be needed. If shown to be weak then 1% interest on banked money. (A dangerous proposition)
Hive- Unchanged
Gaia- Free biology lab on tech, for a small research boost because they lack free market and to repair native life faster.
Uni- Unchanged
Sparta- Impunity Power
Power moved to Adaptive doctrine
Units learn "High Morale" ability on discovery of tech.
CyCon- Unchanged
Cult- Alien artifact as free vehicle to use for an emergency prototyping to combat industry penalty.
2 Fungus energy.
Psi combat bonus of 20%
+1 Police
Pirates- All units gain amphibious pods on tech.
PK, Believers, Drones- I've no idea how to change these without losing the SMAC feel to them. The drones are possibly the only faction needed to be rounded down. I think the believers might need to be rebuilt from the ground up with the intention of creating a faction with a Fanatic bonus that likes to use Fundamentalist gov. The PKs are so average that its impossible to change them without ruining them.
Angels- As noone plays with them and they're hopelessly bugged they should probably be just left alone. If I was creating an entirely new game I would merge them with the PKs as they're both very average/flexible factions. A combined faction could probably compete with Hive and co.
Assorted balance changes: Cut 2 movement points from Air vehicles.
+1 movement for foils and +2 for cruisers.
Carrier deck + deep pressure hull + repair bay moved to Silksteel alloys.
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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Morgan- Testing would be needed. If shown to be weak then 1% interest on banked money. (A dangerous proposition) |
AFAIK, the minium interest is 5%. But I am telling you, Morgan is a strong faction, no changes needed. The Morgan faction is even currently on top in the ACDG.
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Gaia- Free biology lab on tech, for a small research boost because they lack free market and to repair native life faster. |
Gaians are also strong enough. No FM is somewhat made up for with the +4 Eff (100% labs/econ)
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Sparta- Impunity Power
Power moved to Adaptive doctrine
Units learn "High Morale" ability on discovery of tech. |
I think the Power should be changed to -1 industry and give Sparta immunity to Power. No one ever uses power, it needs a boost.
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Cult- Alien artifact as free vehicle to use for an emergency prototyping to combat industry penalty.
2 Fungus energy.
Psi combat bonus of 20%
+1 Police |
2 Fungus energy wouldn't mean jack until late in the game (much like all their benefits. They should get the same 2 fungus nuts like the Gaians do. Even a mineral from fungus would off-set their early problems. A +1 Police wouldn't be a bad idea. It falls in line with the faction personality and would compliment the worm police.
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Pirates- All units gain amphibious pods on tech. |
This would make them a scary faction indeed
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
PK, Believers, Drones- I've no idea how to change these without losing the SMAC feel to them. |
You don't, leave em alone, nothing wrong with certain factions being stronger than others
quote:
Originally posted by Senethro
Angels- As noone plays with them and they're hopelessly bugged they should probably be just left alone. If I was creating an entirely new game I would merge them with the PKs as they're both very average/flexible factions. A combined faction could probably compete with Hive and co. |
Angels are useful and competitive, and fun....they just need their bugs fixed.
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Senethro
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The probe rollover bug and the inability to give too many social properties to factiosn is really starting to get to me.
Is there no way SMAX can be reprogrammed to accept more than 8 social properties or even just treat 4 probe the same as 3 probe?
I would be surprised if this hasn't been attempted before.
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Senethro
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Yes, but I want to give more than 8 in that particular catagory. To fit +1 police, +1 fungus nuts, mins and energy into the Cult mean somethings overlap and are discounted. Theoretically, I could overwrite the free worm, Cent Eco and Social Psych and leave it to the CMN to manually add them to the Cult on creating the game. Do you think people would find that option acceptable? I'm not certain. For one, would that cause the cult to lose the automatic first worm capture? Would tech costs be affected?
Endgame: I'm no coder myself, but surely its just a question of changing a single field? PM me the email and if you ever find someone interested in playing about with SMAX I would be very interested to meet them.
(Would Police suffer from rollover with the cult? hypothetical benefit +1, Brood pit +2, Police state +2, thought control +2.)
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eisdead
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a nice simple balance I found for cult was to change the free tech from social pysch to centi genetics. Gives them access to the Pholus Mutagen and all of your bases would get the free brood pit from the get go. Thats +2 police, and cheeper/stronger mindworms
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Xian
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The Pirates are by far the most overbalanced faction in the game, theyre unbeleivably strong, even the AI plays them well
how can people call them weak?
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Senethro
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I'm still working on this, somewhere in the background. I've got drafts of enhanced believers, peacekeepers, drones and an altered alpha.txt that has more than a nod towards Dilithiumdad's turbosmac. I've mostly tried to achieve a better game through faction alteration than alteration of the baseline smac rules.
Does anyone know how/if I could alter the Children Creche so that it adds only 1 growth to the city? Also, can supply crawlers have their inherent clean ability removed and can the bonus resources Hybrid Forest adds be altered?
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Marid Audran
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Salt Lake City, Utah
May 2001
time: 22:17
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I'll add my two cents to this thread a month late because re-juggling factional strengths and weaknesses is something I've been keen about. The original packaged seven I actually think are pretty well balanced in their way. The Hive is supposed to be a brutal opponent with his immunity to Police State/Planned; you're supposed to be afraid to be his next-door neighbor in the early game. The University is supposed to be a "handicapped" faction for players who don't want too difficult a test or need a crash course in advanced drone control. And contrary to many, I don't think the Spartans are so bad off. Don't just focus on the industry hit and observe the plusses: +2 Morale, so their troops are almost always better than their peers', and thus closer to that coveted elite status quicker. +1 Police, who doesn't like units over facilities/psych handling drones? (coupled with Ascetic Virtues, it's like having a Police State's drone control without needing to run it in SE), and prototyping new units always for free is also nice. They just require a little more finessing than a faction like Hive or Miriam.
The SMAX factions, though, I thought were ridiculously out of whack vis-a-vis the SMAC ones. So I tinkered with just about every entry.
The Data Angels now have +1 Probe to correct the probe roll-over bug. And:
^-20% penalty in defensive combat: {Disorganized garrisons; more likely to flee than stand ground}
The Cyborgs:
^-1 SUPPORT: {Cyborgs require specialized maintenance}
The Drones:
^-2 PLANET: {No environmental safeguards, scorn for native life}
^200% cost modifier to PROBE activities: {Laborers inept at hacking}
The Cult of Planet were a more serious problem, so I ditched the industry hit and added:
^-2 ECONOMY: {Disinterested in wealth and its trappings}
^Impunity to FUNDAMENTALIST penalty: {Fanatically driven to unlock Planet's secrets}
And the Pirates:
^Impunity GREEN penalty: {Driven to tame the wonders of the xenofungus rather than co-exist with it} (This notion I got from listening to his fac wav files when you build many of the new SMAX facilities)
After the novelty of the Progenitors ran out I started to dislike their presence in a game, basically ruining otherwise interesting games with their wanton disregard for diplomacy and sabre-rattling tactics, and the fact that their base infrastructure makes Yang look like Lal. Anyway, I've permanently subbed two custom factions in their stead which I worked very hard to make playable (a lot of playtesting went into that), and natural in terms of philosophy and believability, insofar that you could insert them alongside the Firaxian factions without they coming across as dubious.
The Nautilus Mercantile: This sea-based faction is sort of cross between Morgan and Sven, lead by a French Admiral who was a former governor for the Pirates.
#BLURB
While Svensgaard indulges in his Jules Verne and Captain Kidd
fantasies, the real power of Chiron's oceans remains
untapped. Beneath Chiron's fungal expanse is a cornucopia
of energy, the envy even of Morgan from his gilded terraces! All that's needed are the right tools and proper industries. Do you, as I, dare to dream?
^
^ -- Admiral Etienne Peraud
^ "Merchants at Stern" Lecture
#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Admiral Etienne Peraud}
^BACKGROUND: {8th French Republic; Nautilus Commerce Director}
^AGENDA: {Oceanic Energy Monopoly}
^TECH: {Industrial Base, Doctrine: Flexibility}
#DATALINKS2
^+1 ECONOMY: {Aquatic Conglomerate}
^-1 GROWTH {Long merchant expeditions away from families}
^120% Tech cost: {Cramped labs; research grants at a premium}
^125% Probe cost: {Computer techs behind latest encryption techniques}
^150% Hurry cost: {Difficult to network industries at sea}
^Extra DRONE per five citizens: {Sea-weary traders miss comforts of home}
^Penalty doubled for PLANNED: {Regulated economies breed mass smuggling}
^2% INTEREST on energy reserves: {Trans-aquatic loans}
^+1 ENERGY from fungus squares: {Attuned to xeno-energy resonance}
^Bonus mineral from shelf squares, sea former/colony pod prototype costs waived, may eventually terraform trench squares: {Nautilus Pirate roots}
^{May not use Knowledge values in Social Engineering}
My second faction are The Agrarians of Ceres: This faction is sort of a hybrid of the lifestyle and philosophy of Yang with the temperment of Dee, lead by a New Zealand Agronomist. I never decided which faction she splintered off from; she could have been on board the Unity in independant capacity. She is supposed to start with a free fungicidal former but I couldn't get it to show on the pre-designed unit list.
#BLURB
We seek only to live in peace and practice our agricultural
skills. For more people will come to populate this
planet we now call home. And none are loved more or
held in greater esteem than those who fill the stomachs
of the hungry.
^
^ -- High Councillor Wren Norbury
^ "A Cultivator's Journal"
#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {High Councillor Wren Norbury}
^BACKGROUND: {New Zealand Agronomist; Unity Terraforming Engineer}
^AGENDA: {Planned society; Harvest of Planet}
^TECH: {Centauri Ecology}
^
#DATALINKS2
^+1 POLICE: {Populace feels secure with citizen militas}
^+2 GROWTH: {Nutrient surpluses and high-yield farms}
^-1 INDUSTRY: {Limited space for factories}
^-25% base penalty when attacking: {Lack of aggressive military paradigm}
^Robust EFFICIENCY: {Communal values; Emphasis on family}
^GROWTH penalty doubled for GREEN economics: {settlers find co-habitating with fungus difficult}
^Formers may raise/lower terrain at half the cost
^{May not use Free Market economics}
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Senethro
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Oh, thread has come back to life.
I'm still thinking of making a big rebalancing of smac but as a mod of Civ4 since SMAC tools are too limited to work with. As its so far in the future I've got a growing word file listing all kinds of crazy ideas to improve or add extra features to the game.
Some of the stranger examples are seasonal mind worm migrations and Tree farms no longer give +1 nutrients, but instead give nutrients based on tile moisture capped at +2 total. Hybrid forests would raise the cap to +3 and bonus energy if beside a fungus square. All sorts of strange and unimplementable stuff.
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Quezacotl06
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Would the Hive be tonned down a bit if the growth and industry penalties were eliminated and replaced with +4 efficiency? It's more versatile, plus the hive is still a communist-esque faction.
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Quezacotl06
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what's "ICS"?
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12-12-2004 07:46
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