14-12-2004 00:04									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber No leave aside the labor element for the moment. Assume I buy a house for 300K and without any repairs at all it is now worth 350K. Assume that rent adequately compensated for the labor for maintaining the property. Inflation generally was only 2% in those two years. Is the property owner "entitled" to this compensation on the sale of the property?

Sorry, missed this in the flurry of other posts.

I'd say that goes in the "risk" category. After all, market fluctations could result in the value of the house dropping from 300k to 250k. Is the property owner able to complain that he got hosed for 50 grand? No.

edit: well, yes, he can complain all he likes, but he ain't gettin' his 50 g's back!

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 00:05									#272
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No, since in True communism there is no one to plan (since there is no government period) To me communism is a socio-political aim, not an economic issue whatsoever. Economics is a tool than can be used for a variety of aims.While perhaps Marx will be proven correct in his dialectic historical vision, generally for me communism is a political aim, not an economic reality. Thus thinking it can come about eocnomically, it is wrong.

Political? In a way that has nothing to do with exploitation?

	14-12-2004 00:08									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I didn't say everyone, Kid. I said mostly, and agreed that there is some exploitation. It's a very subjective thing, really. After all, the money charged by a landlord in rent covers - in part - his labor. Therefore, in order to determine whether or not the landlord is exploiting his renters one has to determine (among other things - like what recourse the renters may have to move elsewhere) whether he's valuing his labor properly. Who decides what his labor is worth? Who decides what YOUR labor is worth? Under communism, it seems to me that would be the government (and thus, society at large). Under capitalism, it's the market. NEWSFLASH: either way, it's not you! In many cases, exploitation is prevent or minimized by competition. It's when competition is lacking that the worst problems arise. -Arrian

I appreciate you being forth right with me. I won't hold your feet to the fire. We have come to an understanding that capitalist are paid something, you call incentive, that is not compensation for their labor, but which comes from labor. You went down a road that Vel was not willing to got down.

You rock!

	14-12-2004 00:24									#274
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And here we come round to a point I made in passing in a thread a little while back, but unfortunately didn't have time to follow up on. That is, unlike under a feudal or communist society, your lot isn't predetermined and impossible to change. In this very thread, we have seen how Vel has gone from a worker to a "capitalist", and Kid could do the same thing. The only difference is, Kid doesn't want to.

I believe Che responded to this comment before by pointing out that capitalism relies on having people who do not become capitalists and he's quite right. But that takes care of itself naturally - simply put, not everyone will reach for the stars for whatever reason. Kid is a perfect example. By his own admission, he refuses to try. He, and people just like him, could be just like Vel and scrimp and save, make sacrifices, look for optimal markets and become the dreaded "capitalist". Many people have done it - and granted there's no absolute guarantee of success - but you have to try. You aren't a slave or a servant, but you have to make things happen for yourself. Society will never progress in any direction if we reward the "I don't want to do anything more than the bare minimum, and everyone else should be dragged down to my level" attitude.

	14-12-2004 00:29									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Communism is about freedom from exploitation.

I think this is a big stumbling block here. Instead of harping on capitalism being exploitive, perhaps you should explain how communism keeps one free from exploitation.

	14-12-2004 00:31									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I appreciate you being forth right with me. I won't hold your feet to the fire. We have come to an understanding that capitalist are paid something, you call incentive, that is not compensation for their labor, but which comes from labor. You went down a road that Vel was not willing to got down. You rock!

Why thank you, Kid. I'll take that in the spirit in which it was intended.

We continue to disagree, of course, about whether or not capital helps create value (IMO, it doesn't create value all by itself, but certainly can increase the value of labor).

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 00:41									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian We continue to disagree, of course, about whether or not capital helps create value (IMO, it doesn't create value all by itself, but certainly can increase the value of labor). -Arrian

You can even ACCEPT kid's vision that "labor crates all value' if he would accept that capital is merely the accumulation of labor value . I work hard and save money-- All the value is from labor but somehow magically if we now call it "capital" its bad.

	14-12-2004 00:43									#278
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That too.

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 00:46									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Why thank you, Kid. I'll take that in the spirit in which it was intended. We continue to disagree, of course, about whether or not capital helps create value (IMO, it doesn't create value all by itself, but certainly can increase the value of labor). -Arrian

I don't think we do, because I don't disagree that that capitalist should be compensated for his labor. I only disagree that he should be given an incentive.

	14-12-2004 00:48									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber You can even ACCEPT kid's vision that "labor crates all value' if he would accept that capital is merely the accumulation of labor value . I work hard and save money-- All the value is from labor but somehow magically if we now call it "capital" its bad.

I agree that capital is accumulated labor. The question is who's labor.

	14-12-2004 00:48									#281
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A few things bug me about kid's views on capitalism


1. The self-defeatist attitude-- it seems like he is saying that a worker cannot ever get ahead and that all transactions are imposed from some ruling class-- I cannot accept that.

2. he seems to reject that any capitalsit would have anything other than a financial interest.

3. How a wage that is otherwise fair suddenly becomes "exploitive" if someone else gains from the exchange. THis was the whole "tractor" example where you could pay a worker two to three times what other wage earners are getting yet the higher paid guy is the one getting exploited. I really have a hard time with that one.



I actuually think point one is the biggest stumbling block in the discussion. Fundanmentally I accept the idea of free choice and do not see the MAJORITY of society being forced into anything

	14-12-2004 00:50									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think we do, because I don't disagree that that capitalist should be compensated for his labor. I only disagree that he should be given an incentive.

If he isn't given an incentive, why would he labor in the first place?

	14-12-2004 00:52									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki And here we come round to a point I made in passing in a thread a little while back, but unfortunately didn't have time to follow up on. That is, unlike under a feudal or communist society, your lot isn't predetermined and impossible to change. In this very thread, we have seen how Vel has gone from a worker to a "capitalist", and Kid could do the same thing. The only difference is, Kid doesn't want to. I believe Che responded to this comment before by pointing out that capitalism relies on having people who do not become capitalists and he's quite right. But that takes care of itself naturally - simply put, not everyone will reach for the stars for whatever reason. Kid is a perfect example. By his own admission, he refuses to try. He, and people just like him, could be just like Vel and scrimp and save, make sacrifices, look for optimal markets and become the dreaded "capitalist". Many people have done it - and granted there's no absolute guarantee of success - but you have to try. You aren't a slave or a servant, but you have to make things happen for yourself. Society will never progress in any direction if we reward the "I don't want to do anything more than the bare minimum, and everyone else should be dragged down to my level" attitude.

Why should I have to be a capitalist? Why do I have to pay not to be?

	14-12-2004 00:53									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I think this is a big stumbling block here. Instead of harping on capitalism being exploitive, perhaps you should explain how communism keeps one free from exploitation.

We don't have to pay an 'incentive'

	14-12-2004 00:55									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki If he isn't given an incentive, why would he labor in the first place?

He won't. That's why the 'incentive' must be paid. We don't have a choice in capitalism. We must pay the 'incentive'

	14-12-2004 00:55									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I agree that capital is accumulated labor. The question is who's labor.

Why should it matter??

But lets say its all mine . .. every bit was the sweat of my own brow labor-- I worked 60 hour weeks when everyone else worked 40 hours and I did that for 20 years ( so have accumulated 10 more person\years of labor value than anyone else)

I use that 10 years of labor value to buy a tractor-- So there it sits with 10 years of labor as its value. I want to retire so I rent it out to people at a rate that after expenses, nets me around the same income as my 60 hours of work used to and the tractor has a useful life of 10 years. Who again am I exploiting ( Remember that anyone that uses my tractor nets a much higher income than those that do not)

	14-12-2004 01:00									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why should it matter??

As you say, the capital produces value. So if it's your labor, you want that value.

quote: But lets say its all mine . .. every bit was the sweat of my own brow labor-- I worked 60 hour weeks when everyone else worked 40 hours and I did that for 20 years ( so have accumulated 10 more person\years of labor value than anyone else) I use that 10 years of labor value to buy a tractor-- So there it sits with 10 years of labor as its value. I want to retire so I rent it out to people at a rate that after expenses, nets me around the same income as my 60 hours of work used to and the tractor has a useful life of 10 years. Who again am I exploiting ( Remember that anyone that uses my tractor nets a much higher income than those that do not)

Because the system allows you an 'incentive' for renting that tractor. Your ability to collect rent depends on the system.

	14-12-2004 01:00									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why should I have to be a capitalist? Why do I have to pay not to be?

HUH???

You don't and you don't.

Be what you want as long as you comply with the laws of the society in which you live . .. and if you don't like them, why not leave??

How do you pay to not be a capitalist?? I'm not a capitalist in the sense that I don't own any means of production and I don't pay for that .....

	14-12-2004 01:02									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why should I have to be a capitalist? Why do I have to pay not to be?

You don't have to be. But what do you want to do?

	14-12-2004 01:02									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber HUH??? You don't and you don't. Be what you want as long as you comply with the laws of the society in which you live . .. and if you don't like them, why not leave?? How do you pay to not be a capitalist?? I'm not a capitalist in the sense that I don't own any means of production and I don't pay for that .....

I have to pay an 'incentive' for you to be a capitalist. If I don't want to pay that 'incentive' I have to become a capitalist. I don't want to be a capitalist though. I find it immoral.

	14-12-2004 01:03									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious As you say, the capital produces value. So if it's your labor, you want that value. Because the system allows you an 'incentive' for renting that tractor. Your ability to collect rent depends on the system.

What "incentive"?? I sweated my ass of to get it and I am taking the risk that no one will want to use it etc.

My ability to collect rent depends on the common sense idea that if I "own" something, someone else has to pay to use it or ownership becomes valueless. In other words you have assigned a value of ZERO to the 10 years of hard labor that went into the purchase.

	14-12-2004 01:04									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious He won't. That's why the 'incentive' must be paid. We don't have a choice in capitalism. We must pay the 'incentive'

And what's the incentive in communism?

	14-12-2004 01:05									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have to pay an 'incentive' for you to be a capitalist. If I don't want to pay that 'incentive' I have to become a capitalist. I don't want to be a capitalist though. I find it immoral.

What incentive?? Are you talking rent?? if you don't want to rent my tractor then don't. Its easy . . . Nobody forcing you . .. Just don't complain when everyone that does is making more money than you.

	14-12-2004 01:09									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki And what's the incentive in communism?

There is no 'incentive.' That is there is no compensation beyond your labor.

	14-12-2004 01:10									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber What incentive?? Are you talking rent?? if you don't want to rent my tractor then don't. Its easy . . . Nobody forcing you . .. Just don't complain when everyone that does is making more money than you.

We're going in circles. Don't you agree that the 'incentive' must be paid in the capitalist system? Or don't you?

	14-12-2004 01:12									#296
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "Shelter" is not a product, but you are right that land is capable of being productive if farmed, and hence Marx does categorize it as "capital". As I said, I think this is part of Marx's failing.

1) Shelter is a service, and services are basically products. Otherwise computers aren't means of production, when they clearly are.

2) I don't see how classifying farms as capital could possibly be considered his failing.

	14-12-2004 01:30									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious We're going in circles. Don't you agree that the 'incentive' must be paid in the capitalist system? Or don't you?

I'm not sure how you are using the term and can't be bothered to reread 800 posts to find where it was discussed before and how you are choosing to mangle this word.

In general , I don't see that the capitalist system MUST pay incentives to anybody, but persons are free to offer incentives if they wish.

	14-12-2004 01:33									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I'm not sure how you are using the term and can't be bothered to reread 800 posts to find where it was discussed before and how you are choosing to mangle this word. In general , I don't see that the capitalist system MUST pay incentives to anybody, but persons are free to offer incentives if they wish.

Capitalists are compensated for their labor, and a risk premium. Arrian and I have agreed that they are paid a premium above that. He calls it incentive. Do you think that we must pay this 'incentive' for capitalism to work?

	14-12-2004 01:39									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There is no 'incentive.' That is there is no compensation beyond your labor.

Then what's the motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum? For that matter, what's the motivation to even do the bare minimum, since presumably you wouldn't be left to starve on the street if you were unemployed?

	14-12-2004 01:44									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Then what's the motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum? For that matter, what's the motivation to even do the bare minimum, since presumably you wouldn't be left to starve on the street if you were unemployed?

In capitalism the worker has a disinsentive to work, because he has to pay for the incentive for the capitalist. In communism there is no disinsentive to work.