13-12-2004 10:59									#211
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I was on an aircraft carrier so maybe it took longer. They are kind of slower.

	13-12-2004 11:01									#212
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quote: As I have maintained from the start, the main failing of your position is the complete and total lack of recognition that the people who apply capital to a given project create value by doing so. Compensatable value.

How do they create value? Surely if someone donates land to a housing project, he does not create the value that the land has. Sure, he can add value to the land by clearing it and grading it himself, but that is effected by labour.

	13-12-2004 11:06									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I was on an aircraft carrier so maybe it took longer. They are kind of slower.

Well he's on a carrier too, my ship, a desroyer, always went over solo.

Yes, we were that good!

ACK!

	13-12-2004 11:10									#214
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It will probably take him two weeks then. He should only be there a few days too.

	13-12-2004 11:12									#215
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btw, what is a exegesis?

	13-12-2004 11:28									#216
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I was there four times, overnight every time. Only had time to go to Moose Magillicuddy's.

ACK!

	13-12-2004 11:29									#217
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I have no idea what exegesis is.

ACK!

	13-12-2004 11:43									#218
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From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Exegesis \Ex`e*ge"sis\, n.; pl. Exegeses. [NL., fr.Gr. ?,fr. ?
to explain, interpret; ? out + ? to guide, lead, akin, to ?
to lead. See Agent.]
1. Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical
explanation of a text or portion of Scripture.

2. (Math.) The process of finding the roots of an equation.
[Obs.]

	13-12-2004 12:27									#219
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Cool new word for me.

	13-12-2004 16:38									#220
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Vel:
As I have maintained from the start, the main failing of your position is the complete and total lack of recognition that the people who apply capital to a given project create value by doing so. Compensatable value.

Ag:
How do they create value? Surely if someone donates land to a housing project, he does not create the value that the land has. Sure, he can add value to the land by clearing it and grading it himself, but that is effected by labour.

Two specific examples of the application of capital creating value:

1) The two homes I purchased above. They were for sale by folks who had been holding them for one-year plus. They were, for all intents and purposes, abandoned and sitting empty, and falling apart because of it. By assuming the responsibility of the mortgages (applying sufficient capital, I opened the door that *allowed* further capital to be spent (and labor applied) to make the needed improvements to make them livable again. A thing which previously was not happening, and there was no expectation that it would BE happening under the watch of the former owners.

2) (your example) A wealthy individual sells or donates land, and arranges a loan (both capital) to an enterprising young man to build a factory and start a business. Without the money and land to get started, the labor has nothing to DO. No focus. No land or machinery to work ON, no building to work IN. Without these, the project never gets off the ground.

In both of these examples, the layout of capital preceeds the need for physical labor. It lays the groundwork and foundation which makes the labor down the road possible. Without it, the enterprise would never have even drawn its first breath.

That seems....fairly valuable to me.

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 19:59									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That seems....fairly valuable to me.

What you spoke of was concentration of capital. However, capital, no matter how concentrated, cannot create value. Capital is insert.

	13-12-2004 20:02									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: As I have maintained from the start, the main failing of your position is the complete and total lack of recognition that the people who apply capital to a given project create value by doing so. Compensatable value. How do they create value? Surely if someone donates land to a housing project, he does not create the value that the land has. Sure, he can add value to the land by clearing it and grading it himself, but that is effected by labour.

Hiring people to work in a factory (applying captial to a project) increases the value of the stuff produced by them (well, it increases the quantity, not the value of the individual items, but you get the point).

	13-12-2004 20:03									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What you spoke of was concentration of capital. However, capital, no matter how concentrated, cannot create value. Capital is insert.

When applied to labor it does. Labor creates value. Labor with capital applied creates even more value. It's quite reasonable to claim that, in those situations, the application of capital creates value.

	13-12-2004 20:37									#224
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Wow, I missed quite a ruckuss.

Vel, you slumlord, you!

...

I can think of many reasons people might prefer renting over home ownership. Not forever, of course! My friend, Tom, is trying to get his PhD. He's been out in Chicago for a year + now, working at UChicago (in a Masters program), and is currently applying to numerous universities for his PhD. Thus, he will have been in Chicago for ~2 yrs, and will be moving on to ?? for the next, what, 6 years? Prior to this he was in Boston teaching & trying to get into PhD programs.

While in Boston, he and his wife purchased a Condo. When it came time to leave for Chicago, they had to sell. In the time inbetween, the housing market had fallen somewhat, and they ended up taking a $15,000 loss on the condo. Doh!

In Chicago, they rented. I expect that this time when they move, they will look to buy.

People's needs are variable depending on their personal situation, Kid. Just because YOU want to own a home doesn't mean that everyone does (right now).

The way I read it, Vel put down 15% of the value of these houses, borrowed the rest from the bank, and then spent his labor (and more money) fixing them up. He now receives rent a useage fee from those who live there. I see no exploitation.

That's not to say there aren't bad landlords. As Che's recent experience with trying to find a new apartment illustrates, it can be tough if you're strapped for cash and have to move to where the jobs are.

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 20:45									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker When applied to labor it does. Labor creates value. Labor with capital applied creates even more value. It's quite reasonable to claim that, in those situations, the application of capital creates value.

No. Capital applied to labor sucks the value out of labor. The more capital there is in the economy the more that capital demands of labor. Eventually you come to a point where capital sucks the productive powers from labor. For example, people die, or wars are started etc, so that capitalists can continue to get returns on their capital. If they don't get returns their ficticious, speculative capital will vanish in a massive panick that will free labor.

	13-12-2004 21:09									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The way I read it, Vel put down 15% of the value of these houses, borrowed the rest from the bank, and then spent his labor (and more money) fixing them up. He now receives rent a useage fee from those who live there. I see no exploitation.

What if you got your rent doubled for no other reason than market prices going up? Would you think that was exploitation?

	13-12-2004 21:11									#227
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Geez you bastards are prolific.

	13-12-2004 21:16									#228
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Last week was dead week for me. This week is finals though.

	13-12-2004 21:17									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What if you got your rent doubled for no other reason than market prices going up? Would you think that was exploitation?

It would suck, that's for sure. A sudden doubling in rent sounds, on its face, fishy to me. Rising costs are one thing, but just *bang* double... it strains credulity that costs for the landlord would have gone up so much in a short time period (thus, commercial long-term leases are exempt from this example, but I figure we're not talking about commercial rent anyway).

I'm honestly not that well acquainted with the real estate situation in California, beyond that it's insanely expensive across the board.

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 21:19									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It would suck, that's for sure. A sudden doubling in rent sounds, on its face, fishy to me. Rising costs are one thing, but just *bang* double... it strains credulity that costs for the landlord would have gone up so much in a short time period (thus, commercial long-term leases are exempt from this example, but I figure we're not talking about commercial rent anyway). I'm honestly not that well acquainted with the real estate situation in California, beyond that it's insanely expensive across the board. -Arrian

So are saying that a landlord is only justified in charging rent to recover his costs?

	13-12-2004 21:20									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I call bullshit. You don't own three houses by working even if you are a doctor. You aren't telling us something.

And why not?? I only own 1 but I could easily own 2 or 3 but they would be mortgaged and with the renters providing an income to cover the mortgage. I actually have not done this because I wasn't willing to take the risk of such an investment and also because I didn't have the time to perform the necessary LABOR. I can make more money I figure by working more at my job.

I haven't done it but I know many people that do do this even with only moderate incomes.

	13-12-2004 22:03									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So are saying that a landlord is only justified in charging rent to recover his costs?

No, I think he's also entitled to some profit because of the risk he is assuming.

But, since I'm not a L-F capitalist type, I also don't like the idea of landlords gouging people by suddenly doubling their rent.

It's one thing if your rent is going up steadily ever year. You can plan ahead, and maybe that plan will involve moving. You've got time to react.

But if you're paying $500 now, and the next lease agreement arrives and says it's going up to $1000 - and you either have to agree (within a short period of time, IIRC) or move out... you're in a tough spot.

It is my understanding that there is some basic regulation of landlords for that reason...

Somehow I doubt Vel is pulling that crap (especially since if he tried it in SC, it wouldn't work ).

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 22:15									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian No, I think he's also entitled to some profit because of the risk he is assuming.

Ok. You also think that he should be compensated for risk of loss. Is that every compensation that you believe that a capitalist should be compensated for?

	13-12-2004 22:20									#234
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I think people deserve compensation for:

- labor (to me, this includes thinking/managing, not just manual labor)
- assumption of risk
- ingenuity/invention

I think that about covers it...

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 22:23									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think people deserve compensation for: - labor (to me, this includes thinking/managing, not just manual labor) - assumption of risk - ingenuity/invention I think that about covers it... -Arrian

How about for an increase of value in something they purchased using cash gained through labor or innovation? Or is that part of the assumption if risk element

	13-12-2004 22:25									#236
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Like fixing up the house Vel bought?

Vel put labor into it, coupled with capital (he had to pay for the supplies). I'd say that's part labor, part risk (more money into the investment). If innovation was involved, that figures in as well, although I was thinking more along the lines of inventing a new product (in which case Vel might REALLY become a pigdog oppressor).

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 22:26									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. Capital applied to labor sucks the value out of labor. The more capital there is in the economy the more that capital demands of labor. Eventually you come to a point where capital sucks the productive powers from labor. For example, people die, or wars are started etc, so that capitalists can continue to get returns on their capital. If they don't get returns their ficticious, speculative capital will vanish in a massive panick that will free labor.

I have Y labor which creates X value. I have Z capital, which I apply to Y. Y now produces k*X value, where k > 1.

	13-12-2004 22:31									#238
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Kid

There are places with actual surplus houses.

Take rural Newfoundland as an example. There are isolated communities where every time a family leaves or a preson living alone passes away, there is another empty house.

If a family wants to vacation there for a few months or a novellist wanted to go there for inspiration, shouldn't they be allowed to RENT. People are unlikely to want to buy since there is no guarantee that they could EVER resell


More generally Kid you miss out on some basic things

1. There are people who prefer to rent for any number of reasons even if they could afford to buy.

2. Whether a home is owner-occupied or rented is irrelevant to the issue of scarcity of homes in an area. In California I don't see home prices abating at all even if there was no "speculative ownership" .. . you still have the exact same number of people wanting a place to live

	13-12-2004 22:35									#239
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My uncle, who was one of 7 children who grew up in the house his mothers family had built for themselves became a doctor, and ow he has 4 properties, One huge 8 room house, a beach house, a house in the hills, an apartment in the City, none of which he rents.

Anyways, what does renting a property have to do with capitalism?

Capitalism =/ free markets, or even markets. Its a much more complicated relation, and of course, making money a commodity in itself. A Landlord is not a capitalist, since a feudal lord or a Mercantalist might as well be a landlord.

	13-12-2004 22:38									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Like fixing up the house Vel bought? Vel put labor into it, coupled with capital (he had to pay for the supplies). I'd say that's part labor, part risk (more money into the investment). If innovation was involved, that figures in as well, although I was thinking more along the lines of inventing a new product (in which case Vel might REALLY become a pigdog oppressor). -Arrian

Ok. Thank you for answering. Now next question is "Do you think that is all that capitalists recieve; comensation for their costs(including risk)?"