12-12-2004 12:49									#1
	Exegesis - Cap/Com-ist Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Which means that successful people are not likely to be communist . Figures . . .

How large a significance does luck play in everyday affairs?

	12-12-2004 12:59									#2
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A lot. There is one's genetic endowment and class endowment, which are completely matters of luck, and which for the vast majority of people will determine their station in life.

That is, unless some form of socialist reforms are instituted in which case the sons and daughters of handymen and labourers can go to college at a high rate (as those from my primary school did).

	12-12-2004 13:43									#3
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I know a guy who ended up with lots of houses before he died. He started off as a siding salesman. He was pretty damn successfull at selling siding so he started subcontracting jobs out. That's when he started taking second mortgages out on houses for jobs. He became a millionaire, not by selling siding, but by taking houses from people who couldn't pay their bills.

He wasn't lucky and his selling ability didn't get him those houses. The system got him those houses.

	12-12-2004 18:41									#4
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Are you sure his 'selling ability' didn't have something to do with pursuading people to buy siding by mortgaging their homes when they couldn't afford it?

	12-12-2004 18:46									#5
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Actually, how is "selling ability" a real value producer? Unless it's just a real ability to describe the pro and cons of the sale, it's just like advertising. The "manufacturing" of demand.

	12-12-2004 21:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Actually, how is "selling ability" a real value producer?

It helps a product get from the producer to a consumer. It adds value to the product, since a product you can buy is more valuable then one you cannot.

	12-12-2004 21:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Are you sure his 'selling ability' didn't have something to do with pursuading people to buy siding by mortgaging their homes when they couldn't afford it?

Yes it did, but my point is that he didn't become wealthy by making commision. He became wealthy by taking peoples houses who couldn't pay their bills. And you are right he concentrated on selling siding to people who he knew couldn't pay their bills so that he could take their houses.

Now some of you may call this guy successfull, but he's only successfull at working the system. That's saying that people who are successfull should be successfull. Being successfull says nothing about how beneficial you have been to society. And sometimes it's the opposite.

	12-12-2004 21:37									#8
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Why did this thread start before the other hit 500?

	12-12-2004 21:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It helps a product get from the producer to a consumer. It adds value to the product, since a product you can buy is more valuable then one you cannot.

I was referring to that in my post. Once the buyer-to-be is made aware of the product, and knows all of it's aspects, any other "persuasion to aquire" doesn't add value.

	12-12-2004 21:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon A lot. There is one's genetic endowment and class endowment, which are completely matters of luck, and which for the vast majority of people will determine their station in life.

People are talking about luck as opposed to ability.

By your reasoning, in a meritocracy your status would be dependent completely on luck.

	12-12-2004 21:52									#11
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I agree with Az. If a person needs siding there's no reason why they can't just pick up the phone and make a call. In my experience sales is mostly trying to convince people that your product or service is more valuable than it really is. That's where your pay comes from, not from informing the consumer.

	13-12-2004 00:13									#12
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quote: By your reasoning, in a meritocracy your status would be dependent completely on luck.

It is, the abilities you have are largely determined by forces outside your control. Hence it's a matter of luck.

	13-12-2004 00:15									#13
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Then it's stupid to condemn something because it's based on luck.

	13-12-2004 01:19									#14
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Some, to be sure.

As with everything, life is unpredictable.

That's not a function of systemic factors, that's simply the way the world works.

Luck plays a role no matter what the econmic system. If we lived in commie paradise, your house might burn down and mine doesn't. Even in Red-Land, that sets you back. Luck of the draw.

I agree, condemnation of ANY system on the basis that not all factors can be controlled is rediculous. Since no system can control all the variables, all systems can be likewise condemned. It becomes an exercise in futility.

Each system has a means of dealing WITH bad luck and bad spots in the road. Commie mavens will be quick to clamor on about how if something bad happens to you, the benevolent state will leap to your rescue.

Capitalists have a social safety net, personal networking, and insurance.

Same goal gets accomplished. One requires you to work at it, the other is automatic.

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Luck plays a role no matter what the econmic system. If we lived in commie paradise, your house might burn down and mine doesn't. Even in Red-Land, that sets you back. Luck of the draw.

The difference is that I won't have to rent from you obviously.

	13-12-2004 01:35									#16
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From the other thread:

Zazel: Well, Vel, the problem with your position, is you think that only capitalists can enable wealth to be created.

Well...yes and no. I mean, when I use the term, I mean to say anyone with capital applying it in the form of wealth creation. Thus, by default, anyone who does so IS a capitalist.

Kid: That's why Che isn't talking to you about it. You're being a real *******, and you aren't making any points, because you are stuck on this crap.

Not making any points?

Let's see...so far, we have the fact that if the revolution happened tomorrow, Che would make off with two of my houses (houses bought with my labor that you people hold so sacred...just not MY labor, apparently) and you would force me to work somewhere of your choosing, without telling me how long I'd be gone.

Yep. I do indeed keep harping on that, cos I'm still waiting for you guys to tell me where the JUSTICE you keep saying your system is so full of is in the scenario above.

I keep waiting, and no answer is forthcoming cos you both know that there IS no justice in it.

And you still wonder why I'm not falling all over myself to sign up?

If holding your feet to the fire about parts of your own ideology that make you squemish makes me an a$$, then I guess I'll just have to be one.

It IS your ideology after all. Your "religion."

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:36									#17
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The difference is that I won't have to rent from you obviously.

Ahhhh, that's right! You'll pay a state usage fee for your People's Housing....which of course, is not rent, and so, perfectly acceptable when the state "exploits you."

Got it!

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And you still wonder why I'm not falling all over myself to sign up?

Jesus H. Christ, I've told you several times that I don't wonder why you aren't a communist. You just don't give a crap what people say. Why the hell do you talk to them? Do you just like to read what you write?

	13-12-2004 01:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The difference is that I won't have to rent from you obviously. Ahhhh, that's right! You'll pay a state usage fee for your People's Housing....which of course, is not rent, and so, perfectly acceptable when the state "exploits you." Got it! -=Vel=-

Everyone pays the fee. So how is that exploitation?

	13-12-2004 01:42									#20
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Ohhh...I'm an inspiration to you and you know it!

I get to be your personal whipping boy for everything that's bad wrong with the system.

I'm your friggin' poster child.

When the revolution comes, you'll prolly have a BIG life sized poster of me up in all the People's Watcher Offices "have you seen this man?" If so....arrest him on sight!

Anyone who thinks like him....off to be re-educated!

I'm good for you...

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:42									#21
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So? Everyone pays a fee NOW!!! You think that there are builders and contractors out there just GIVING houses to the wealthy?

What kind of strange place IS the Kidaverse, anyways?

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:46									#22
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quote: Zazel: Well, Vel, the problem with your position, is you think that only capitalists can enable wealth to be created. Well...yes and no. I mean, when I use the term, I mean to say anyone with capital applying it in the form of wealth creation. Thus, by default, anyone who does so IS a capitalist.

Well, gee, in that case, anyone starting up any new economic entity is a capitalist.

	13-12-2004 01:47									#23
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Anyone who applies capital to wealth creation...yes.

Exactly. That's what the word means

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So? Everyone pays a fee NOW!!! You think that there are builders and contractors out there just GIVING houses to the wealthy? What kind of strange place IS the Kidaverse, anyways? -=Vel=-

No. The people who pay rent pay for the houses.

	13-12-2004 01:49									#25
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Back to Kid:

Let me get this straight.

If you pay me a usage fee, it's exploitation, cos it's coming TO me.

If you pay it to the state (even if the state is charging you more), it's NOT exploitation, cos everybody has to pay.

I'm assuming you've heard of Income Taxes.

Here's a shocker...the rich in this country PAY MORE than the guy working at McDonald's.

They must be getting exploited! Thus, they are not the criminals you make them out to be, but just like the rest of us poor shmucks...just getting exploited by The Man.

Pick a position and stay with it for a bit...it's more fun that way...

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Anyone who applies capital to wealth creation...yes. Exactly. That's what the word means -=Vel=-

kinda makes for a boring discussion. There is no way to create wealth on a major scale, be it a command economy or capitalism.

	13-12-2004 01:52									#27
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:: shakes head::

Ohhhhhh Woe Is Me! The whole world is out to get me! Everyone is all evil and exploitive! Nothing but a bunch of lazy capitalist pig dogs!

Know what?

Me and my fiance own three houses.

Know how we got them?

We WORKED OUR A$$ES OFF!

Our labor went into those homes. Saving for the down payments, doing the fix up work, skimping on fun and entertainment, staying home when our friends were going out.

We made that choice, and we're succeeding.

I know it's shocking, but yes. All by our little old selves, we're succeeding.

Through hard work.

Labor.

Sacred, 'member?

But that doesn't matter to you. You still gonna come confiscate them "for the greater good."

-=Vel=-

	13-12-2004 01:53									#28
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Back to 'zazel: Sure there is. A capitalist is an individual, not an emmisary of the State. So a state bureaucrat who holds the purse strings and releases funds for the building of a new factory in a command economy is not a capitalist, he's merely carrying out his mandate (tho if the funds were disbursed to an individual then, yes, much like the SBA giving loans to individuals here, that person (the person receiving the funds) would be a capitalist...but that won't happen in a command economy, since the individual can't own anything).

Fundamental difference.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Clarity

	13-12-2004 01:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Back to Kid: Let me get this straight. If you pay me a usage fee, it's exploitation, cos it's coming TO me. If you pay it to the state (even if the state is charging you more), it's NOT exploitation, cos everybody has to pay. I'm assuming you've heard of Income Taxes. Here's a shocker...the rich in this country PAY MORE than the guy working at McDonald's. They must be getting exploited! Thus, they are not the criminals you make them out to be, but just like the rest of us poor shmucks...just getting exploited by The Man. Pick a position and stay with it for a bit...it's more fun that way... -=Vel=-

Um, I think I mentioned that I believe people should have similar incomes.

	13-12-2004 01:56									#30
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So as long as it's state sanctioned exploitation, it's okay, right?

Just no individual exploitation.

Good plan. Institutionalize the exploitation.

Do you not see the fundamental problems here??

-=Vel=-