15-12-2004 01:53									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I understand all of it. It is very direct and clear. Very little room for interpretation actually. The question is how do you understand it.

You really do dwell in a bizarro universe, don't you? Just as you say, it's very direct and clear. How do you not see the same thing as the rest of us?

	15-12-2004 01:55									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If you pay students as much as you pay ditch-diggers, pretty much everybody will be a student (and not that many will stop their studies, because being a student is far more interesting than having a job)

You previously said that people would not become doctors if they didn't get paid more. Did you mean they wouldn't become doctors if their education was fully paid and they still didn't get paid more? That's what we're talking about.

	15-12-2004 01:56									#453
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Oh and I liked Spiffor's answer as well. The people that really like being a student will always find one more program or issue to study. Are some central planners going to decree that that the doctoral thesis must be done in 18 months-- After all the professors will always support continuing study since if they have no students prehaps they don't get to keep being a professor

	15-12-2004 02:01									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki You really do dwell in a bizarro universe, don't you? Just as you say, it's very direct and clear. How do you not see the same thing as the rest of us?

Why the hell can't you understand it? What is wrong with you?

	15-12-2004 02:01									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We must have not had the same experience of college. The objectively lazy person you are talking to (i.e. myself) is a student . A colleague of mine, who studies the very same thing and is even more lazy than I, worked once as a bartender, and clearly told me "never again"

You clearly have no idea what post graduate work is like. Or at least, business, law and medicine - altough I'm sure other fields are just as rigorous.

	15-12-2004 02:02									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why the hell can't you understand it? What is wrong with you?

Why does EVERYONE see things differently than you? Does it EVER occurr to you that maybe you are misinterpreting things??

Not once eh?? Just as I thought.

	15-12-2004 02:03									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious O M G! I can not support you in any kind of political pursuit that you have. You have no justification for overthrowing the current rulers just so that you can set up your own little rule. You scare me.

No, I have a different justification for overthrowing our current rulers, which is that they misrule. If they were capable of providing a stable economy and a decent standard of living for all without the periodic crises to which capitalism is subject, there would be no point in overthrowing them. This is the fundimental core of Marxism. It is not the capitalism is unfair, it is that capitalism is insane.

quote: Ah, no. It would be the same as it is today. They would vote with their pocket book.

Society would vote, not the doctors. Presumably we'd have people like you providing data for us to make an informed decision as to how we should reward them.

quote: As shocked as I am that you can misinterpret Marx, maybe you don't like Orwell because it would be harder to fit your own desires into it, and use it for political propaganda purposes.

As for Orwell, I didn't say I didn't like him. I think he's a fine author and I like his work, at least until he began ratting out other leftists, and 1984 is still pretty good. Be that as it may, he doesn't supplant Marx and Lenin and others.

quote: Yes, we have already agree upon that. You were going to show me where Marx said that doctors should be compensated beyond the cost of their education. You haven't done that.

I think part of your problem is the fact that I didn't sufficiently distinguish when I was writing about socialism and when I was writing about communism. In socialism, many of the market's mechanisms will still be in operation. Thus during this period, docotors will still be compensated according to supply and demand, in addition to the increased cost of their labor due to their training. In The State and Revolution, Lenin limits wage differentials to five times the lowest pay scale. When inheritence taxes are included, this prevents the rise of a new class.

When society becomes so productive that wages become meaningless, we will have reached communism. Doctors will still probably recieve greater social rewards for their labor, but it won't take the form of money.

quote: His argument is a MORAL argument.

Ah, no. His argument is that capitalism is irrational and unplanned and that it is insane for humans to be the slave of a mechanism they created (the market). While he makes moral arguments, they are to support his philosophical argument. You put the cart before the horse when you make moral arguments your chief arguments.

	15-12-2004 02:04									#458
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quote: It is the cost required for the maintenance of the laborer as a laborer, and for his education and training as a laborer. Therefore, the shorter the time required for training up to a particular sort of work, the smaller is the cost of production of the worker, the lower is the price of his labor-power, his wages.

Someone please tell me how this says that a laborer should be paid for more than his labor and his training. I'm completely dismayed.

	15-12-2004 02:05									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I am a lawyer and get paid reasonably well to be one.

Well, presumably we'd have far less need for lawyers.

As far as the really shitty jobs in society go, like coal mining or garbage collection, I imagine some kind of work sharing by the rest of society. Rather than have dedicated garbage collectors, we take turns, as part of our debt to society so that we can all spend more time doing the work we'd perfer to do.

	15-12-2004 02:08									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why the hell can't you understand it? What is wrong with you?

I can't see what's not there. Here's part of what Che quoted:

"Therefore, the shorter the time required for training up to a particular sort of work, the smaller is the cost of production of the worker, the lower is the price of his labor-power, his wages."

Where do you see something other than the more training required, the higher the wages?

	15-12-2004 02:09									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious quote: It is the cost required for the maintenance of the laborer as a laborer, and for his education and training as a laborer. Therefore, the shorter the time required for training up to a particular sort of work, the smaller is the cost of production of the worker, the lower is the price of his labor-power, his wages. Someone please tell me how this says that a laborer should be paid for more than his labor and his training. I'm completely dismayed.

You're also forgetting about the supply and demand part, which also operates in the market for labor.

	15-12-2004 02:09									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You previously said that people would not become doctors if they didn't get paid more. Did you mean they wouldn't become doctors if their education was fully paid and they still didn't get paid more? That's what we're talking about.

If their education was fully paid, many people would become doctors over manual labour. But there is the (strong) risk that the huge majority of people will avoid manual labour altogether, and study for the most interesting jobs, that will match their vocation. It will result in an overload of people in some kinds of job, while many other jobs will find very little people wanting to do them (repetitive unskilled manual labour, but also obscure or unattractive skilled jobs).

In France, where university is basically free and where most students are supported by their parents, we have this problem already, with some courses such as sports and psychology being overwhelmed. And still, France is a capitalist country where most students know they have to pick a cursus that will lead to an actual job, because of the financial pressure.

	15-12-2004 02:12									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We must have not had the same experience of college. The objectively lazy person you are talking to (i.e. myself) is a student . A colleague of mine, who studies the very same thing and is even more lazy than I, worked once as a bartender, and clearly told me "never again"

School was ok but I did not enjoy it-- I enjoyed the associated partying etc but that would have occurred at school or in the workforce anyway.

I liked bartending. It was busy work but good music and good looking girls everywhere made it fun. I would probably like it less now.

Ditchdigging-- I actually worked with a shovel digging a ditch in a historical area not accessable to machines. I actually figured I was getting paid to work out and the result was much more muscle. There was a lack of mental stimulii in the work but I could always banter with my co-workers about anything.

Even now I get a real sense of satisfaction out of building things. I enjoyed building my fence. There's actually a little bit of satisfaction with ever nail driven straight and true.


I agree that some people would love school and they would tend to try to stay there even more than they do now . . . But a lot of smart people will know what they really enjoy and if that involves no college, that is what they will choose.

personally I think that jobs at national parks, ski hills and golf courses will be in VERY high demand

	15-12-2004 02:13									#464
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As far as the really shitty jobs in society go, like coal mining or garbage collection, I imagine some kind of work sharing by the rest of society. Rather than have dedicated garbage collectors, we take turns, as part of our debt to society so that we can all spend more time doing the work we'd perfer to do.

Actually, giving a good financial reward for the really shitty jobs could be a good idea as well. In France, there is currently a lack of people willing to collect garbage. The answer to that problem was to raise these wages dramatically. Garbage collection is a pretty interesting job now, if you have no skill and want to have a middle-class wage. If I was on the dole, I'd probably consider it.

	15-12-2004 02:14									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Where do you see something other than the more training required, the higher the wages?

He also has a problem with the part where I said that because society values the labor of a doctor more, that it would be compensated more. He forgets that labor-power is a commodity, and that as long as the law of value is in operation (which would be the case in socialist society to greater and lessor extents), society will treat it as such. Society will want to encourage people to become doctors and not limit themselves to digging ditches.

	15-12-2004 02:18									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Even now I get a real sense of satisfaction out of building things. I enjoyed building my fence. There's actually a little bit of satisfaction with ever nail driven straight and true.

EXACTLY!!!!! Humans are a creative species, and we get an emotional reward for engaging in behavior which encourages survival, which creativity does. This is why people will continue to work, even when there is no longer a financial incentive. Because people like to work! It when they see no point to their work or they have no control over it that they begin to hate it.

quote: I agree that some people would love school and they would tend to try to stay there even more than they do now . . . But a lot of smart people will know what they really enjoy and if that involves no college, that is what they will choose.

Why not work and go to school for the rest of your life? Why limit learnig to a specific period of life. I would love to learn new things until the day I die. I really miss learning.

quote: personally I think that jobs at national parks, ski hills and golf courses will be in VERY high demand

We might have to ration those, too.

	15-12-2004 02:18									#467
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious O M G! I can not support you in any kind of political pursuit that you have. You have no justification for overthrowing the current rulers just so that you can set up your own little rule. You scare me. No, I have a different justification for overthrowing our current rulers, which is that they misrule. If they were capable of providing a stable economy and a decent standard of living for all without the periodic crises to which capitalism is subject, there would be no point in overthrowing them. This is the fundimental core of Marxism. It is not the capitalism is unfair, it is that capitalism is insane.

So you must disagree with Marx when he claims that the workers have a moral claim to their labor, and that they are justified in revolt. That really explains why you think that some people whould be given advantage in your state capitalist state.

quote: quote: Ah, no. It would be the same as it is today. They would vote with their pocket book. Society would vote, not the doctors.

Society is just a bunch of self-interested individuals. What the hell? Who is going to vote exactly? The doctors are not going to vote?

quote: quote: As shocked as I am that you can misinterpret Marx, maybe you don't like Orwell because it would be harder to fit your own desires into it, and use it for political propaganda purposes. As for Orwell, I didn't say I didn't like him. I think he's a fine author and I like his work, at least until he began ratting out other leftists, and 1984 is still pretty good. Be that as it may, he doesn't supplant Marx and Lenin and others.

Yes, exactly what I thought. Animal Farm is a threat to your world view. Incidentally, the book is not an attack on Marxism, but only an attack on your kind of 'communism'.

quote: quote: Yes, we have already agree upon that. You were going to show me where Marx said that doctors should be compensated beyond the cost of their education. You haven't done that. I think part of your problem is the fact that I didn't sufficiently distinguish when I was writing about socialism and when I was writing about communism. In socialism, many of the market's mechanisms will still be in operation. Thus during this period, docotors will still be compensated according to supply and demand, in addition to the increased cost of their labor due to their training. In The State and Revolution, Lenin limits wage differentials to five times the lowest pay scale. When inheritence taxes are included, this prevents the rise of a new class. When society becomes so productive that wages become meaningless, we will have reached communism. Doctors will still probably recieve greater social rewards for their labor, but it won't take the form of money.

I don't care about Lenin. Stick to Marx. If you claim Leninism fine. In this discussion let's stick to Marx. And I am not what you call a socialist, but maybe you want to tell me how that brand of 'communism' is compatable with Marxism.

quote: quote: His argument is a MORAL argument. Ah, no. His argument is that capitalism is irrational and unplanned and that it is insane for humans to be the slave of a mechanism they created (the market). While he makes moral arguments, they are to support his philosophical argument. You put the cart before the horse when you make moral arguments your chief arguments.

He doesn't just make moral arguments to support his philisophical claims. Jeez, you are just calling him a bullshitter. How could he justify the overthrow of a classist sytem and justify another class system. That's incredible to think of you believing that.

	15-12-2004 02:19									#468
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You're also forgetting about the supply and demand part, which also operates in the market for labor.

Oh come on! Come with it. What the hell are you talking about?

	15-12-2004 02:23									#469
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, presumably we'd have far less need for lawyers. As far as the really shitty jobs in society go, like coal mining or garbage collection, I imagine some kind of work sharing by the rest of society. Rather than have dedicated garbage collectors, we take turns, as part of our debt to society so that we can all spend more time doing the work we'd perfer to do.

Job-share as coal miners-- Sorry but thats just laughable-- the innefficiency involved in the required trainign and the safety concerns of part time miners. sorry.

There would even be a lot of innefficiency with the garbage collectors in trying to find your way through unfamiliar neighborhoods

And what about other highly skilled jobs in the oil and gas industry that are well compensated and involve a fair bit of time away from spouses and girlfriends? Those people now get extra money to live in the bush-- many would not do it for the same money as a city-based job .


Take a real life example. Fort McMurray Alberta probably pays its tradespeople more than anywhere else in Alberta and even then has to work hard to attract people (There is a shortage of many trades here due to the construction boom). Equalize the wages and a lot of those people go back to working in the big cities or back in their hometowns

	15-12-2004 02:23									#470
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	15-12-2004 02:24									#471
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Society will want to encourage people to become doctors and not limit themselves to digging ditches.

Like society today encourages people to be capitalists.

	15-12-2004 02:27									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If their education was fully paid, many people would become doctors over manual labour. But there is the (strong) risk that the huge majority of people will avoid manual labour altogether, and study for the most interesting jobs, that will match their vocation. It will result in an overload of people in some kinds of job, while many other jobs will find very little people wanting to do them (repetitive unskilled manual labour, but also obscure or unattractive skilled jobs). In France, where university is basically free and where most students are supported by their parents, we have this problem already, with some courses such as sports and psychology being overwhelmed. And still, France is a capitalist country where most students know they have to pick a cursus that will lead to an actual job, because of the financial pressure.

It's very difficult to talk to you about this when you are assuming a free market.

	15-12-2004 02:27									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Like society today encourages people to be capitalists.

Bullcrap-- Some capitalists succeed other fail-- I believe something like 80-90% of new businesses FAIL.

Anyone with a little money can try to become a businessperson. Some try and some don't but there is no guaranteed profit for anyone

	15-12-2004 02:31									#474
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I'll join in the next Cap/Com. This one has bad aura.

	15-12-2004 02:33									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh come on! Come with it. What the hell are you talking about?

Part of the reason why doctor's labor is valuable is because the demand for doctor's doesn't meet demand. In the Soviet Union, where there were many more doctors, their status fell when compared with their Western collegues.

	15-12-2004 02:35									#476
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Part of the reason why doctor's labor is valuable is because the demand for doctor's doesn't meet demand. In the Soviet Union, where there were many more doctors, their status fell when compared with their Western collegues.

A ha! I see the problem here. You propose a free market for labor too. Right?

	15-12-2004 02:38									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Job-share as coal miners-- Sorry but thats just laughable-- the innefficiency involved in the required trainign and the safety concerns of part time miners. sorry.

Yeah, I know. But most coal mines are in areas where there really aren't a lot of other jobs. And people who live in these areas are pretty fierce about wanting to live there. Hopefully, however, we could further automate coal mining, so no one has to do it. I'm not a big fan of coal as it is. Nasty polluting stuff.

quote: There would even be a lot of innefficiency with the garbage collectors in trying to find your way through unfamiliar neighborhoods

Yes, but that's not terribly important.

quote: Take a real life example. Fort McMurray Alberta probably pays its tradespeople more than anywhere else in Alberta and even then has to work hard to attract people (There is a shortage of many trades here due to the construction boom). Equalize the wages and a lot of those people go back to working in the big cities or back in their hometowns

I don't have all the answers. Maybe we can sentence criminals to have to work up there.

	15-12-2004 02:43									#478
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I'm less offended Che, but you can not claim that Marx proposed a free market, or pay differential. That was Lenin.

	15-12-2004 02:44									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A ha! I see the problem here. You propose a free market for labor too. Right?

Not entirely, but there will be a market, at least at first. We're not going to fully impliment socialism on day one of the revolution. The working class needs experience in managing the economy before it begins making changes, and even then, we need to do so in a rational and planned way and not arbitraily. To do so would create the same economic dislocations we are seeking to do away with. The experiences with war communism in the Russian Revolutoin and The Great Leap Forward in China should be instructive here. If we're simply going to repeat the mistakes of the past, what's the point?

	15-12-2004 02:47									#480
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's very difficult to talk to you about this when you are assuming a free market.

On the contrary. When I'm talking about this (in this thread), I assume a society where people can do what they wish without coercion. Be it financial coercion like it exists in free-market societies, or political coercion like it is in a purely planned economy where there is a numerus clausus for everything.

If people are free to do what they wish, they'll go toward their vocation. And this vocation will more often be firefighter, astronaut, teacher or doctor, than garbage collector or ditch-digger.

If you want to have people dig ditches, you need a system that forces them (or at least strongly encourages them) to do so. Capitalism threatens those people to live misery if they don't comply. How does YOUR system intend to force / encourage them to do that job?