15-12-2004 02:54									#481
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Spiffor,

One important idea of communism is efficient organization of labor. We can't leave it up to any kind of free market. That's not going to work.

	15-12-2004 02:56									#482
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, I know. But most coal mines are in areas where there really aren't a lot of other jobs. And people who live in these areas are pretty fierce about wanting to live there. Hopefully, however, we could further automate coal mining, so no one has to do it. I'm not a big fan of coal as it is. Nasty polluting stuff.

I agree on coal but it is an example of a nasty job that is currently necessary and for which people are NOT interchangeable parts. Replacing coal with oil and gas means even more drilling in remote areas where nobody lives. I don't see a line-up for those jobs either.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't have all the answers. Maybe we can sentence criminals to have to work up there.

Good one. I am just happy to see a communist admit problems with equalized wages. I actually believe that it was you that pointed out that differences in wages are an accepted part of some branches of communist ideology. Well actually I think you said it is part of socialism but that wages become unnecessary in true communism.

As for prisoners . . . hmmm it is an isolated town in northern Alberta with a booming economy and a ratio of men to women to discourage any many with heterosexual desires . . . so some of it already sounds prisonlike. Lets explore this . . . many of the workers live in camps where they are provided all meals and accomodation and many never leave the grounds except in buses provided by ther facility.

	15-12-2004 02:57									#483
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And if they try and escape, they get eaten by bears.

	15-12-2004 02:58									#484
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not entirely, but there will be a market, at least at first. We're not going to fully impliment socialism on day one of the revolution. The working class needs experience in managing the economy before it begins making changes, and even then, we need to do so in a rational and planned way and not arbitraily. To do so would create the same economic dislocations we are seeking to do away with. The experiences with war communism in the Russian Revolutoin and The Great Leap Forward in China should be instructive here. If we're simply going to repeat the mistakes of the past, what's the point?

We don't want to make major changes. We can operate the economy largely the way it is. Produce the same goods and services mostly, and just allocate resources as they become free. Just becuase they ****ed it up in Russia and China doesn't mean that we shouldn't be afraid to try. I see a big problem with not living by the ideals of communism as soon as possible. You have to eliminate the special interests right away.

	15-12-2004 03:00									#485
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And if they try and escape, they get eaten by bears.

Unfortunately thats too close to the truth. Mrs Flubber's brother lives there and he doesn't enjoy it ( a single guy that doesn't want to be single but pickings are slim in Fort Mac). But he stays because the money is just so good.

	15-12-2004 03:01									#486
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I see a big problem with not living by the ideals of communism as soon as possible. You have to eliminate the special interests right away.

Not that way! Quicksand!

	15-12-2004 03:03									#487
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Spiffor, One important idea of communism is efficient organization of labor. We can't leave it up to any kind of free market. That's not going to work.

And pray tell what would this efficient method be ?

Ordeers from the central planners?


Anyway I have to run again to create more value. I got a call today that indicated that I have created so much value this year that I will earn a nice bonus

The free market rocks

	15-12-2004 03:05									#488
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I'm sorry Che, and I hate to say this, but I would not contribute to a system like that. I would be very much opposed. You need some kind of moral justification. You can't just say that your way works better. It's not going to work better for a lot of people and you are going to have enemies, and it is very likely that I would be one of them.

	15-12-2004 03:07									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Just becuase they ****ed it up in Russia and China doesn't mean that we shouldn't be afraid to try.

Actually, it does. We need to be damned careful, instead of charging around like a bull in a china shop.

quote: You have to eliminate the special interests right away.

By special interests I assume you mean the previous ruling classes, and we just have to eliminate their political power. Something like the NEP with a gradual expansion of the state sector of the economy.

	15-12-2004 03:09									#490
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious you are going to have enemies, and it is very likely that I would be one of them.

Anarchist!

	15-12-2004 03:11									#491
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious [q]You have to eliminate the special interests right away. By special interests I assume you mean the previous ruling classes, and we just have to eliminate their political power. Something like the NEP with a gradual expansion of the state sector of the economy.

I mean any special interests who try for political gain.

The NEP was a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned. There was no gradual expansion of the state sector it was brutal and they let the kulaks influence the peasants.

	15-12-2004 03:21									#492
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm sorry Che, and I hate to say this, but I would not contribute to a system like that. I would be very much opposed. You need some kind of moral justification. You can't just say that your way works better. It's not going to work better for a lot of people and you are going to have enemies, and it is very likely that I would be one of them.

Oh, this is just classic! Mr. "I haven't thought out the details" telling someone "you can't just say your way works better"!

	15-12-2004 03:26									#493
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Spiffor, One important idea of communism is efficient organization of labor. We can't leave it up to any kind of free market. That's not going to work.

I too would love to hear how this works. You can also explain how it would be more fair than a free market and removes exploitation.

	15-12-2004 03:29									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The NEP was a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned. There was no gradual expansion of the state sector it was brutal and they let the kulaks influence the peasants.

The purpose of the NEP was to grow the economy of the USSR, which was almost totally destroyed. By the late 20s, Trotsky was arguing for a gradual increase of the state sector of the economy and industrialization, opposed by Stalin and Bakharin. Once Trotsky was out of the way, Stalin propsed a rapid and brutal increase of the state sector.

	15-12-2004 03:31									#495
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I too would love to hear how this works. You can also explain how it would be more fair than a free market and removes exploitation.

You train people for actual jobs, not jobs that may or may not be there. I hope that's not too complicated for you.

	15-12-2004 03:36									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You train people for actual jobs, not jobs that may or may not be there. I hope that's not too complicated for you.

No, as with just about all of your explanations, it's far too simplistic for me. Try to actually come up with some details that have a prayer of actually working.

	15-12-2004 03:37									#497
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious One important idea of communism is efficient organization of labor. We can't leave it up to any kind of free market. That's not going to work.

So, I guess you suggest a completely planned economy where people are ordered which role to fill?

Or at least, a completely planned economy where the whole of demand is decided by the planners (i.e. individuals can choose whatever job they wish, as long as there is room in that branch)?

Or something completely different?

	15-12-2004 03:47									#498
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The purpose of the NEP was to grow the economy of the USSR, which was almost totally destroyed. By the late 20s, Trotsky was arguing for a gradual increase of the state sector of the economy and industrialization, opposed by Stalin and Bakharin. Once Trotsky was out of the way, Stalin propsed a rapid and brutal increase of the state sector.

So are you against Lenin's plan, and for Trotsky's plan?

	15-12-2004 03:54									#499
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki No, as with just about all of your explanations, it's far too simplistic for me. Try to actually come up with some details that have a prayer of actually working.

You plan a job, and you train someone to do it. Quit being difficult.

	15-12-2004 03:56									#500
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So are you against Lenin's plan, and for Trotsky's plan?

It's not a matter of princples. It's a matter of necessity. The NEP was necessary for it's time. Trotsky's plan was necessary for its time. It's not a matter of supporting one over the other.

	15-12-2004 03:56									#501
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Let me ask you this Che. What do you think the end result was going to be with the NEP, and how was this going to happen?

	15-12-2004 03:58									#502
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not a matter of princples. It's a matter of necessity. The NEP was necessary for it's time. Trotsky's plan was necessary for its time. It's not a matter of supporting one over the other.

So you mean the plan for gradual collectivization in 1927 was actually Trotsky's plan?

	15-12-2004 03:59									#503
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You plan a job, and you train someone to do it. Quit being difficult.

So there is absolutely no freedom of decision. People are forced to do a job they don't necessarily want.

Does your system at least have as much flexibility as the capitalist one (i.e job mobility is possible even if difficult) or not at all?

	15-12-2004 04:03									#504
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This thread is dead. Time to start a new one.

	15-12-2004 04:06									#505
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor So there is absolutely no freedom of decision. People are forced to do a job they don't necessarily want. Does your system at least have as much flexibility as the capitalist one (i.e job mobility is possible even if difficult) or not at all?

I believe in some flexibility, but the priority is getting the 'socially necessary' work done, and by those who have the capability to do it.

	15-12-2004 04:08									#506
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So you mean the plan for gradual collectivization in 1927 was actually Trotsky's plan?

Yep.

	15-12-2004 04:09									#507
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Let's make it a thread just for commies. I'm sick of talking to these capialists.

	15-12-2004 04:11									#508
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yep.

It didn't work.

	15-12-2004 04:11									#509
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let's make it a thread just for commies. I'm sick of talking to these capialists.

Naw-- you wouldn't stay away from vel and my island paradise so why oh why would I stay away from your thread?

	15-12-2004 04:13									#510
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kulak