12-12-2004 20:11									#1
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What is saltpeter for?

Is it a good idea to automate workers?

If I am able to trade lux goods, does that mean I am not using them and should trade them? Or can I use them somehow?

How do I make my culture better? The advisor always says other country are not impressed with my culter.

Is the advisor always right when it comes to trades with AI civs? "I doubt they will accept this proposal ect..."

Thanks in advance, and I will also thank you specifically.

	12-12-2004 20:36									#2
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Saltpeter is a Strategic Resource that allows Musketmen, Cavalry, etc. It's value in the Middle Ages is comparable to that of Iron in the Ancient Age.

Do not automate Workers. You will be able to to do it better almost regeardless of skill level and if not you will probably be able to learn on your own. I can find you some good articles on how to use Workers, if you're interested.

If you have more than one of any one type of luxury, it is doing nothing for you outside of it not being in anyone else's possession. Whether or not you "should" trade is very situation dependent and would probably evoke debate.

Don't worry a whole lot about culture unless it gets to the point where it's looking like it's going to be somebody's (anybody's) victory condition. Generally speaking you increase culture with more cities that have buildings that produce culture (Wonders, temples, libraries, etc.)

Yes, he always right. He is a simple barometer of their willingness to trade. If he says "We're getting close to a deal" when I offer 87 gold for Pottery and "This deal will be acceptable" when I offer 88, then that is the line on the best deal from this opponent.

	12-12-2004 20:43									#3
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Speaking of saltpeter and stupid AI moves (your other thread), I have head scratching AI move to put out there.

It's the end game, almost all techs are researched and everyone's military is running on mech inf, modern armor, radar art, jets, missiles, etc.

Why would Egypt still be willing to give me 36/gpt for Saltpeter in 1999? I have made this deal over and over again (for varying amounts) -- and I don't understand why they feel compelled to trade for a resource they obviously don't need.

	12-12-2004 23:46									#4
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Probably because the game will always want all resources and lux. You have seen the advisor say we could use more resources, when you have 5 or 6 of everything.

What I want to know is why you are trading terms with anyone so late in the game? Warmonger man (j/k).

	13-12-2004 01:06									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Twelve Motion What is saltpeter for? Is it a good idea to automate workers? If I am able to trade lux goods, does that mean I am not using them and should trade them? Or can I use them somehow? How do I make my culture better? The advisor always says other country are not impressed with my culter. Is the advisor always right when it comes to trades with AI civs? "I doubt they will accept this proposal ect..." Thanks in advance, and I will also thank you specifically.

Saltpeter is needed for Calvary and Calvary replacement UUs.

Also if your not playing the Dutch, it's needed for MusketMen or in case of France Musketters. [Dutch's UU has same defense as MusketMen for half the price.]

There's a few early naval units that need Saltpeter and it's also needed to build the useless coastal fortress. Might be needed for cannon as well.

If automating, be sure to use the version that leaves existing improvements alone so you don't have it converting mined grassland for irrigated grassland on a city stuck at size 12.

To improve Culture, build more Temples, Libaries, Catherdrials, Universitys and a wonder or two.
Also, you could totally wipe out a civ with more culture than you to move up the cultural ladder by comparision.

Yes, the AI advisor is always right.
"Almost there" means you need to improve the deal by somewhere between 1 gold and 25% of the AI value of it's side of the equation.

"Doubtful" means you need to improve the deal somewhere between 25% and 100%

"Insult" means you need to improve the deal in excess of 100%

"Never accept" generally means your asking for something the AI will never do. This could be more GPT than they are currently making, or else your asking them to accept more GPT than you are currently making, or could also be because of trade violations they no longer trust mixing gold with gold per turn. Also the AI is preprogramed to reject city trades unless only thing on the other side of the ledger is Peace / Alliance / MPP

	13-12-2004 02:12									#6
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Thank you everyone for the quick responses!

Yes I would love some worker article links if you got them. I never know when to clear forest, and when to irrigate or make mines. Some kind of city placement article would be nice also. Should I place my cities ON things like shields, spice, insense? Or next to them?

What do colonies do really?

	13-12-2004 03:08									#7
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There is a link to "opening moves" in the topped thread in the strat forum.

Easy way is to mine green, irrigate wheat, hold off of hills till later.
Irrigate when you cannot grow due to lack of food.

Save move turns by not sending workers over the same tiles over and over. Lots of exceptions, but those you need not worry about till you have more understanding of the game.

City placement is an art and level dependant and map as well. If you have little land and an island, you must pack them tight. If not then you have leeway, but the farther you spread them the easier the level better be or the better your skills.

Colonies are a waste forget them. Ok, there are a few rare times where it can makes sense. I just can't remember the last time I made one. They esentially tie the colony to your empire, if you have a road to it. So you do not have to have it in your borders and can treat it as if it was in your borders.

	13-12-2004 07:55									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Probably because the game will always want all resources and lux. You have seen the advisor say we could use more resources, when you have 5 or 6 of everything. What I want to know is why you are trading terms with anyone so late in the game? Warmonger man (j/k).

Oh, I was a warmonger! Just one at a time! THe last few countries were my allies in many of those campaigns.

I'm building my nuke arsenal now

	13-12-2004 21:25									#9
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Never place cities on any food bonus tiles. You'll lose the food bonus.

Avoid placing cities on grassland-shield tiles. Cities founded on grassland-no shield have the same stats. For that matter, cities founded in a plains, tundra, desert, or hills tile have the same stats as well.
Founding a city on forest / jungle has the affect of choping it [without the 10 shields] / clearing it.

Marsh must be cleared to allow a city to be founded in that tile.

It's okay to found cities on commerce bonus tiles, you'll get to keep it.

Colonies are a waste of time unless no where near a tile that a city is allowed.

I generally go with city placements that mazimize the number of tiles worked by some city in my empire. This is a mix of tight and loose city spacing.

Under desoptism, never irrigate a grassland tile that doesn't have a food bonus. (Waste of time)

Siimlarly, don't irrigate a plains + a 1 food bonus nor mine a plains + a 1 shield bonus.

Excess food past size 12 pre-Hospital / size 6 in a city without fresh water lake, river, aquaduct] does no good whatsoever.

Post Hospitals, specialists have very little value, just convert enough to balance out working every tile.

Forest chops are best early on, in a city that's not building a wonder. Time it to complete such that no wasted shields result. This will also reveal over grassland which tiles have shield bonus.

It's a good idea to plant forests in tundra.

quote: Originally posted by Twelve Motion Thank you everyone for the quick responses! Yes I would love some worker article links if you got them. I never know when to clear forest, and when to irrigate or make mines. Some kind of city placement article would be nice also. Should I place my cities ON things like shields, spice, insense? Or next to them? What do colonies do really?

	14-12-2004 00:48									#10
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quote: It's the end game, almost all techs are researched and everyone's military is running on mech inf, modern armor, radar art, jets, missiles, etc. Why would Egypt still be willing to give me 36/gpt for Saltpeter in 1999? I have made this deal over and over again (for varying amounts) -- and I don't understand why they feel compelled to trade for a resource they obviously don't need.

quote: Probably because the game will always want all resources and lux.

...

Well, probably because the AI for some reason still thinks it needs to build Cavalry.

A resource that is totally useless to the AI will NOT have value. I've been playing the TAM mod lately, and it has a marble resource. Marble is only used to build Imperial Roads (RRs), and the tech for that is of course 2 ages into the game... but you can see marble very early on in the first age. Therefore, for a significant period of time it's basically just a bonus resource. But it shows up on the trade screen.

If you try to trade it to the AI, they will refuse to offer anything for it.

So the probably isn't the AI wanting useless resources, really, it's the AI wanting to build obselete units.

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 01:05									#11
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excellent tips - thanks!

	15-12-2004 20:36									#12
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I too am learning and yeah Im a noob..just an old fart of a noob

Thanks for the answers

Shogun

Maybe they gave you the gold for fear of your overwhelming them?

	15-12-2004 20:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll I too am learning and yeah Im a noob..just an old fart of a noob Thanks for the answers Shogun Maybe they gave you the gold for fear of your overwhelming them?

Interesting thought. Since I usually don't get this far into an epic game (it's either won or lost before Modern Armor sees the battlefield), I thought I would try a bunch of different strategies out.

I did build a sizeable nuke force and promptly launched a pre-emptive, no-notice, nuclear first strike against the Persians. I was expecting the remaining three (Eygpt, Iroquois and Portugal) to declare war on me, but no. Eygpt and the Iroqouis (who were fighting each other) declared war on Persia!

Then I replayed without launching the nuke strike and launched a conventional war. Eygpt and the Iroquois Nation continued to fight, but did not declare war on Persia at any point.

Apparently, nuking Persia was on everyone's wish list. It was unusual to me, because we all have had the experience in Civ 1, II and III that starting a nuke war tends to get the rest of the world against you.

	16-12-2004 01:13									#14
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Not always, if you have an overwhelming strength vs them.

	16-12-2004 08:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not always, if you have an overwhelming strength vs them.

kinda what I was thinking..maybe, for real, everyone felt you were too strong..

	19-12-2004 02:36									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Why would Egypt still be willing to give me 36/gpt for Saltpeter in 1999? I have made this deal over and over again (for varying amounts) -- and I don't understand why they feel compelled to trade for a resource they obviously don't need.

I had a similar experience, in my recent epic game, after steam power has been discovered, Mayans offered like 15 gpt for horses!

	19-12-2004 04:23									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus I had a similar experience, in my recent epic game, after steam power has been discovered, Mayans offered like 15 gpt for horses!

I don't find that case to be too weird. Cavalry don't become fully obsolete until tanks roll around. Even then, they're still handy as scouting units until modern armor arrives.

All that being said, I'm working on a mod where cavalry upgrades to an armored scout car (8/5/3 needs oil) at the same time that tanks come. That way you don't have the odd case of AI wanting horses right through the modern age.

	19-12-2004 04:53									#18
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sounds good!

I am a U S Army Vet..and agree there are medium options between Horses and Tanks

Yours is a very believable & acceptable medium....

The M551-Sheridan is a or should i say was a viable option..it was a light tank/reconnisance vehicle

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	20-12-2004 04:20									#19
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My idea for an armored scout is more of a WWII car (with armor-plating and a mounted machine gun, etc.). A LAV (light-armored vehicle) would be the modern upgrade. So the upgrade chain could look like this:

Cavalry (6/3/3, needs saltpeter/horses, w/ military tradition) -->

Armored Scout (8/5/3, needs oil, w/motorized transport) -->

Light-Armored Vehicle (or LAV) (14/8/3 or 4, needs oil/aluminum, w/ either computers or synthetic fibers)
I was thinking I'd either give it a move rate of 4, or a move rate of 3 + radar (to abstractly represent its scouting ability).

Anyway, that's what I had in mind.

There are two reasons to have this chain. First, it takes cavalry off of the build list without having it upgrade to tanks. Second, it provides a cheaper unit for modern armies. I found a (6 or 8) wheeled LAV unit on CFC that looks pretty good. The reason I chose wheeled over tracked was so that it didn't look too much like modern armor or mech. infantry.

	20-12-2004 05:52									#20
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This is an L A V (Light Armored Vehicle) offloading from an L-Cat (with a HUMVEE behind it)

Peace

Gramps

For the record, I love the thought process..keep at it!

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	20-12-2004 06:03									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Twelve Motion What is saltpeter for?

Saltpeter is yummy candy.

	20-12-2004 06:19									#22
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in this game it is a resource..lets just leave "other applications" for another thread

Gramps

	20-12-2004 07:46									#23
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"other applications"

this thread and something someone said at my work caused me to look it up.

The guy at work said they used saltpeter to keep sexual desire down during boot camp.

The guys at work asked if my boot camp used it. I had no idea about this urban legend until a few months ago.

And yes, it is indeed an urban legend. The military does not add saltpeter to inhibit sexual desire.

	20-12-2004 07:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident "other applications" this thread and something someone said at my work caused me to look it up. The guy at work said they used saltpeter to keep sexual desire down during boot camp. The guys at work asked if my boot camp used it. I had no idea about this urban legend until a few months ago. And yes, it is indeed an urban legend. The military does not add saltpeter to inhibit sexual desire.

well, I will say as a veteran and went through boot camp at Fort McClellan Alabama USAMPS,TC & FM that we also heard the "rumor"..but one thing is for sure..categorically denying it doesnt mean it didnt happen...

ya gotta wonder though..17-20 year olds..no physical contact with another human being allowed for about 12 weeks...

twelve weeks..thats hard

Maybe so maybe not..

Gramps

	20-12-2004 07:54									#25
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but specifically saltpeter is KNO3. Potassium Nitrate. Used to make gunpowder.

It is said it is formed in warm climates by bacterial reactions of animal/human waste and plant waste in the soil.

	20-12-2004 22:23									#26
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As well as being used to make gunpowder, saltpeter has also been used as a food preservative and in the making of incense. I heard somewhere it was used in mummification too.

In the game, saltpeter is needed to build musketmen, cannons, cavalry, frigates, and coastal fortresses.

	20-12-2004 22:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but specifically saltpeter is KNO3. Potassium Nitrate. Used to make gunpowder. It is said it is formed in warm climates by bacterial reactions of animal/human waste and plant waste in the soil.

All true (but IIRC I think NaNO3 is also a form of saltpetre). But to make gunpowder, you also need sulfur. Why saltpetre for the limiting resource - or are there plentiful deposits of elemental sulfur everywhere?

Also, shouldn't nationalism allow cavalry without saltpetre? If you look at nationalism/rifleman in the pedia, it says (last time I looked) that saltpetre is now so plentiful and traded widely that you don't need the resource yourself for rifleman. What if someone is a resource hoarder in the game?

	21-12-2004 02:11									#28
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Saltpeter was the most difficult to find between Saltpeter, Sulfur and charcoal in the high middle ages.

Last edited by joncnunn on 21-12-2004 at 03:52

	21-12-2004 02:13									#29
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In game terms, letting people build Calvary without the Saltpeter resource would almost competely make it pointless.

(Musket Men are very unpopular due to how much more they cost compared to Pike Men)

	21-12-2004 03:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn In game terms, letting people build Calvary without the Saltpeter resource would almost competely make it pointless. (Musket Men are very unpopular due to how much more they cost compared to Pike Men)

I think my problem is is that I'm always trying to extrapolate too much of the real world into civ, and sometimes forget that I should be interested in game play and balance.