14-12-2004 14:04									#1
	Plan of Action for 2153 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Dreams of Green is prosperous and should grow in 2156. It can control another citizen, but could also make a colony pod and spread our faction. I say we make a colony pod, but other options such as crawlers or formers are also viable.

After the end-of-turn save, Yang moved half a dozen or so units towards our blockade. They'll be slagged by collateral damage, but he is actually trying to attack. The cost of probing a unit there is about 120 ECs, more than we can get in a few turns (net 18/turn right now).

	14-12-2004 15:01									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: After the end-of-turn save, Yang moved half a dozen or so units towards our blockade.

Didn't I predict this?

How is our seaforming business going?

	15-12-2004 00:11									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Another 5 turns or so before the former would be ready without hurrying. We can shave off 1 or 2 with ECs reasonably. After that, another few turns to move it into position and several more to actually lower the sea floor.

	19-12-2004 07:49									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Turn's in! I'm not even touching it until tomorrow...

	19-12-2004 17:05									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nothing new, Yang is still moving a bunch of units towards us. However I noticed two strange things - first is that is first time I noticed that Yang has Ethical Calculus which explains why are Spartans now willing to trade it to Angels. Second one is a strange bug - two of the ingame messages reported that forest is expanding near Arcadia University, which we cannot see. Zooming onto the location of message crashes the game of course.

	20-12-2004 15:47									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: two of the ingame messages reported that forest is expanding near Arcadia University

That is a common bug.
I have it each turn when forest expands near any base of player which is right before me in turn order..

	20-12-2004 15:52									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And:

quote: Yang is still moving a bunch of units towards us.

Don't make any expectations on this flow to stop.

If AI is at war with someone, he will flood units towards him as long as he has any units that are considered "attack" units (usually units whose attack is bigger than defense and units with offensive special abilities like 1e-1-2 empath rover).

Only thing which can stop Hive now is Sea former.
But we must watch Hive F7 screen closely for any attack foils..

	20-12-2004 20:14									#8
	Plan of action for 2154 Remove this text

The war with Yang goes reasonably well for now. Yang's artillery pieces are worrying, but he doesn't seem to know how to use them. Just in case, the spore launcher should go there.

Saving ECs for possible probing, and for the sea floor drop. They should be spent to prevent drones where reasonable, but not simply for faster production.

	22-12-2004 21:11									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin in post: Plan of action for 2153 Only thing which can stop Hive now is Sea former. But we must watch Hive F7 screen closely for any attack foils..

And then what? What would we do even if he does launch foils? We could have our one port start building a foil of our own, but we will have neither the attack or defensive strength, nor the production capacity Yang has. Our only bet would be to take a 1-1-4 foil and start trolling fungus for IoDs. Even then one or IoDs isn't a navy. For the most part the former is going to be on its own, we just have to hope for some good luck.

Are current strategy is an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't believe 3 MWs can hold off the steady stream of Hive units that are likely to come pouring out of their cities for very long. We need that sea former ASAP. We also can not afford to rush it as we may need every EC we have to pay for the lowering. IIRC lowering enemy land is very expensive. Maybe someone should fire up the senario editor and see approximately, how much this will cost

	22-12-2004 21:43									#10
	Put an end to popups!

quote: And then what? What would we do even if he does launch foils? We could have our one port start building a foil of our own, but we will have neither the attack or defensive strength, nor the production capacity Yang has. Our only bet would be to take a 1-1-4 foil and start trolling fungus for IoDs. Even then one or IoDs isn't a navy. For the most part the former is going to be on its own, we just have to hope for some good luck.

Noone says we can kill Hive foil, but we can avoid it and see it moving out of base etc.
Any information is crucial!

quote: Are current strategy is an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't believe 3 MWs can hold off the steady stream of Hive units that are likely to come pouring out of their cities for very long. We need that sea former ASAP. We also can not afford to rush it as we may need every EC we have to pay for the lowering. IIRC lowering enemy land is very expensive. Maybe someone should fire up the senario editor and see approximately, how much this will cost

You should read some more.
Those 3 MWs are our plan A.
They wont last forever, but they can hold off many units as they come in stacks and very slow (see map).
As soon as they're too damaged to continue, they will retreat to fungus and take positions according to plan B.

Formers near the northmost base are preparing the battleground for plan B.
It contains forests, sensors and the existing fungus barrage.

	27-12-2004 05:22									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hi all, Sorry I haven't been around for a while. I'm not up to speed on the game yet but two things I've noticed:
(1) at Flowers Preach we could move the crawler to drag the 4 nuts and work the forrest instead for +1 nut for that base at no cost.
(2) at Red Water Spring, we could work the 2-1-1 tile instead of the 1-2 tile and (a) grow the base in 5 turns instead of 8, and (b) gain 1 energy which would boost our research from 8 turns to 7 turns. This would cost 1 mineral but we could always rush the rec commons when needed.

Oh, and in general I think we're better off building crawlers before rec tanks. I like getting mineral production as high as possible as soon as possible in the early game. It will be easier to build the rec tanks once we have a few more crawlers in place.

Last edited by Net Warrior on 27-12-2004 at 05:29

	27-12-2004 11:03									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Your proposal seems good, although I haven't taken a look at the turn, but don't expect any discussion or opinions right now as activity is very low.
Our Chairman Of The Lords Chaos Theory will take your opinion into consideration and take a closer look to bases mentioned.
Almost all decisions are being made by him now at least till activity returns to more satisfying level..

	27-12-2004 14:19									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It does sound good Net Warrior.

	28-12-2004 05:43									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've looked a little further we might want to consider a little different crawler/worker setup. Here we could go to 60 economy and 40 labs and increase our EC's from 17 to 27 per year while only reducing our research from the current 8 down to 9 turns to complete our current research. So, are 10EC's per year worth 2 extra years to complete our research? We could rush build some sorely needed crawlers with those extra EC's.
I'm not advocating anything, I'm just pointing out the options.

	28-12-2004 06:12									#15
	Tired of ads?

I've been studing Hive bases and I've deducted that Society Grid, building a sea colony pod, is located at 37,49. There are no rovers at that base, so, I believe we could drop a probe at 42, 50 and probe a Hive tech the turn after.
Hive has 4 techs that we do not. They are researching at about twice our rate. Perhaps we should de-emphasize our own research and emphasize probing for techs instead.
We are way behind in this game and it's time for something radical.

	28-12-2004 16:09									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay, does anyone know where Chaos Theory is? If he doesn't show up soon, one of us shall have to play the turn.

	29-12-2004 01:26									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm here now and am starting to play the turn.

	29-12-2004 01:57									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Reassigning the crawler at The Flowers Preach. Reassigning the worker at Red Water Springs would just cause us to need a doctor sooner, as ECs are in short supply.

It would be inefficient to change rec tanks already well past 10 minerals. Rec tanks are also somewhat cheaper to hurry, mineral for mineral, than crawlers, and yield more factors of production (1 food, 1 mineral, 1 energy) than most crawlers right now (2 food or 2 minerals).

Going 60 Econ/40 Labs would cause us to take 3 more turns to get Ecological Engineering, and provide about 9 more ECs/turn.

We are pursuing techs the Hive likely would not get for a while, but other human factions would want or pursue. Once we get Environmental Economics, we should probe-rape Yang, but before then we do need our own research.

	29-12-2004 02:06									#19
	Plan of Action for 2155 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

According to my world map scenario, it would take at least 300 ECs to cut our bridge to Yang, with no additional base founding. If we found a base near the bridge, that cost drops to 100-150 ECs, a much more manageable figure. Dreams of Green looks like the best source for a CP.

Refer to Net Warrior's posts in the 2154 thread for some options.

	29-12-2004 07:09									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not to spam, but Illu, your PM box is full

	29-12-2004 16:52									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Moving our worker from the 1-2 tile to the 2-1-1 tile at Red Water Spring last year would still have saved us a year on research. So we either rush a rec commons for 20 EC's and have an extra worker for 3 turns, or use a doctor for the drone because growth there increases from 7 turns to 4. How bad is that? Doesn't anyone else at least want to offer an oppinion?.

Proper worker/crawler coordination should allow each worker to pull in some energy. We should move our crawler from 59,67 to 58,70 so that the following year it can move to 54,72 and free up some forrest tiles for worker adjustments. Even with the pending growth in the area of Skeletal Woods, there are still extra tiles there for this.

Also, why are we still building that pointless sea former? Let's bite the bullet and swirch to a crawler.

What about probing Society Grid? Other oppinions please?

Last edited by Net Warrior on 29-12-2004 at 17:53

	30-12-2004 00:57									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior Moving our worker from the 1-2 tile to the 2-1-1 tile at Red Water Spring last year would still have saved us a year on research. So we either rush a rec commons for 20 EC's and have an extra worker for 3 turns, or use a doctor for the drone because growth there increases from 7 turns to 4. How bad is that? Doesn't anyone else at least want to offer an oppinion?.

It's misleading that moving that worker would decrease the reported turns left. We'll finish the research in 2160 regardless of that particular worker, as explained in the turn report thread. It is not useful to hurry up growth just to make the new pop unit a doctor, at the cost of mineral production. Hurrying the rec commons is normally the best way to deal with this, but we need ECs for cutting the land bridge and possibly probing units.

quote: Proper worker/crawler coordination should allow each worker to pull in some energy. We should move our crawler from 59,67 to 58,70 so that the following year it can move to 54,72 and free up some forrest tiles for worker adjustments. Even with the pending growth in the area of Skeletal Woods, there are still extra tiles there for this.

I'll take a look at that, then

quote: Also, why are we still building that pointless sea former? Let's bite the bullet and swirch to a crawler.

Because we can lower the land bridge for an acheivable energy cost, and it's our only strategy for stopping Yang before D:AP.

quote: What about probing Society Grid? Other oppinions please?

Certainly a possibility, though the tech we get may not be particularly useful for a while.

	30-12-2004 15:23									#23
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Also, why are we still building that pointless sea former? Let's bite the bullet and swirch to a crawler. What about probing Society Grid? Other oppinions please?

Dear NetWarrior!

Please take a look at the turn and our current situation and then state such an inappropriate statements.

1.Probing that grid would be good but only with coordination with our foil, which is now on other duties and returning would take time.

2.Sea Former is NOT pointless.
If you want to say that something, what we have been planning almost since we met Yang and he declared Vendetta on us, is pointless, then please read all the discussions about this former. You are not the first to offend this plan and you won't be the first who fails to offer a better one..

	30-12-2004 15:29									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

ALSO - If our former gets killed by Hiverian foil we can use the energy stockpiled for rushing a perimeter defense in that base and use it as defense point..

	30-12-2004 16:21									#25
	Tired of ads?

I noticed that the Hive Impact Artillery Rover slipped right past our Unity Foil last turn so if it's task is ZOC, it's not working. So, I still say we should probe.

Yang has 2 artillery units in the area you're planning to lower with the sea former. a) it will take a long time to get there, b) it will be very expensive, c) if Yang stumbles onto hitting it just once with artillery while it's working, we lose all the effort.

	30-12-2004 16:32									#26
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Yang has 2 artillery units in the area you're planning to lower with the sea former. a) it will take a long time to get there, b) it will be very expensive, c) if Yang stumbles onto hitting it just once with artillery while it's working, we lose all the effort.

There comes it again!

Don't you understand!
We don't need any more critics!
We want you to propose a better plan if you think this is a bad one and state all the pros and cons of your plan so we can discuss and decide.

Pure criticism leads to stagnation, not innovation!

	30-12-2004 16:44									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

ok, quickly then, without looking at the game again for details: There is a peice of high ground in the fungus near our former. We put the SL there. We build a sensor to boost the defence for all those fungus tiles there. We plant more fungus and try to lure Yang into it. We hold our MW's where they are for as long as possible and then drop back to the fungus. We probe Yang and hope for HEC, PolySoft, or NonLinear Math. We go to 60 Eco and 40 Labs, retarding our research by 2 years but increasing our EC's to 27 or 28 per year. We build more probes and try to subvert one of Yangs units (the Impact Artillery would have cost 164 EC's IIRC). Depending on what tech we steal, we build more Inf units (laser Inf at least for the counterattack). Eventually, in the worst case, we burn down our base there and keep fighting on.

We can't stay where we are too long becasue Yang has 2 commando Inf there we we can't afford to lose even one MW.

Also, our SL is a hatchling so we should send it over for a morale boost if we have the time.

Last edited by Net Warrior on 30-12-2004 at 17:14

	30-12-2004 17:15									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, read your plan.

There are some things I must say.

1.Next time prior to making a plan, see the turn. It will make some misplaced ideas obsolete.

2.At the moment we're not going to retard our research as we're very close to discovering the very valuable tevh of EcoEng.

3.Weak point of your plan is capture.
I understand you think capturing an enemy unit would strenghten our forces there, but:
1)do you know how many turns we must hold prior to capture anything?
2)are you aware that Yang is moving in dozens of units? one captured unit would make very little difference at the cost of capturing it..

4.You should read the plans for last 10 turns - we discussed defensive plans there and now we have 2 plans:
1)plan A which is being executed right now (NL + probe at the choke point)
2)plan B which is being prepared at our northmost base (and which is very alike your fungus-defense plan, but has been developed into greater complexity and therefore has more chances to succeed)

5.Your idea about probing Yang is good, but we must first get some probes in the radius..
If we can get either HEC or NM, idea about building perimeter defense at our planned base near bridge becomes very viable

6.We can't afford losing an MW but we can keep killing stacks of Yangs units while at least one of our MWs is 90-100% healthy

7.I don't really think that devising more and more plans for the choke point defense does any good to us.
Intead we could wrap our minds more around the production of our bases.
If we can get a good building rate soon, we could produce enough units to at least fend Yang off.
And the closest goal in this race for productivity is boreholes - they would give us both energy and minerals that we need and with our enhanced terraform capacities we can build some of them real soon..

	30-12-2004 17:24									#29
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

ok, but just one final thought. If we had 164 EC's last turn we could have subverted that Impact Artillery Rover insead of driving it off. That would give us immediate access to both impact weapons and artillery.

	30-12-2004 17:30									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: ok, but just one final thought. If we had 164 EC's last turn we could have subverted that Impact Artillery Rover insead of driving it off. That would give us immediate access to both impact weapons and artillery.

!eureka!

I just wonder how CT didn't think about this..

Let's hope we will ahve the opportunity to repeat your plan!