15-12-2004 10:34									#1
	Issues with the border and PAL Inflate your Upload Space

Ok it seems like our discussions with PAL have gotten quite "heated" over the border so I apologize to everyone for my minimal presence in the last week or so.

Please this thread

http://cookieexchange.proboards36.c...&num=1102626869

You have to be registered at the bananacookieexchange to read it, please see the topped INFO thread for info on how to do that.

GK got a tad bit out of hand. I asked F-P to temporarily suspend his posting privledges. Sorry GK but I need sleep, and the posting had to stop, it was inflaming the issue. Consider it "tough love" my friend.

PAL gave us four proposals they worked long and hard on.

Two of which they dont even like, but felt were good comprimise positions.

The split is near 50 50 in most cases and in some cases we get like 8 settlers.

Now look at the power graph. Take a logical look. Not an emotional one. The current score is Pal 536 and we have 289.

If anyone really thinks we are still in the drivers seat in this game, please feel free to step forward, I will render my resignation immediately and you can take over diplomacy with PAL.

I say we take a hard look at there proposals, grab one that gets us a lot of settlers and move on. GK's posts have lost us a lot of good will with PAL. If we fiddly Fvck around with this much longer they will dictate a plan to us and or find another ally. Arrogance is going to get us no where folks because quite frankly we haven't played a great game thus far and cant back it up.

Survival to the next game or not? I think our survival depends upon working closely with PAL and convincing them to help us as much as possible so we can both win this one jointly.

Ill try and get the proposals up in a poll tomorrow for the citizens to vote, but right now after chasing all you kids and your problems around tonight, Im pooped and need to go to bed

powergraph:


If someone can do the image magic for me I would appreciate it, Im too tired and cant remember right now.

Discuss of course.

Polls sometime tomorrow, I hope, if not then by thursday

Last edited by conmcb25 on 15-12-2004 at 23:18

	15-12-2004 22:26									#2
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It did what I wanted it to do. It got them into discussing the issues instead of dictating, like they had been.

I am going to write a response tonight when I get home from work, after waiting 24 hours for everybody to have a chance to breath. And no, it was not going to be a mean little letter like I posted here and there earlier.(Yes, look in the ongoing border discussion thread and you will see a copy of my response if you don't want to look at the other forum.)

Tell FP to either re-instate my posting privlages, or to expect one hell of a lot of emails to be sent out with my response. This is a mess that I wanted to create, as it is the only way to get them to open up without having to kiss their behinds.

	15-12-2004 22:45									#3
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Your privledges were revoked on my request, I asked F-P to do it last night. I had a feeling you were on a roll and I was trying to do damage control. If the consuls want it reinstated I will have it done so immediately.

Your posts have incited PAL. Your motives were good it was just your delivery was less than desired.

If you dont want to kiss there asses, I will.

Have you looked at the power graph? They can outproduce us, they breed like rabbits and they can out research us. Just where do you think we can actually dictate anything ourselves?

We have already taken steps to make sure the next go around that they WILL BE dictating to us, and the bottom line at that point will be what are we going to do THEN to back it up?

Now if the team decides the method we should take is to incite and tell them to screw off then fine, we will do that, but lets hear from the team and the consuls first OK?

So please hold off on your emails. Damage has already been done. So until we decide that the path we want to continue on lets just cool it for 24 to 48 hours OK?

Thanks man.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 15-12-2004 at 23:21

	15-12-2004 23:03									#4
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godking is the god of the negotiations...

	15-12-2004 23:19									#5
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I love him like a brother but sometimes I think he drinks too much

	15-12-2004 23:20									#6
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I for one am not in support of Con's "look at the powergraph and do what they tell us" approach.

I'm also not pleased to see that GK's posting priviledges have been revoked because Con didn't like what GK was saying.

Reinstate GK. And please communicate HERE, in our thread, what their proposals are which ones YOU support and why.

I'd like to know which plan the ministers feel is our best option.

--Togas

	15-12-2004 23:23									#7
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Ok I will have his privledges immediately reinstated.

As far as Im concerned GK can handle the negotiations.

good luck

	15-12-2004 23:33									#8
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Con, don't leave. I do appreciate what you are doing. It doesn't hurt my fealing one bit as I know what you were attempting to prevent (and it is something that we both have seen in the past, so there is precident - abet not with either of us doing it.)

I will post a draft of my responce here. Feel free to comment.

	16-12-2004 00:03									#9
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Both of you are doing a good job.
But, Godking, please rethink your future moves. You have made two mistakes already (small or big - we will understand). I don't want you to stop just to be more tactful

	16-12-2004 00:11									#10
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No Im not leaving GK, its just a question of time.

Im not going to take the time to post all the proposals over here for people to review.

Because IMHO if we continue to be arrogant about the issue, we are just going to piss them off and then they will dictate what the border will be.

And there wont be a heck of a lot we can do about it.

You really have done a good job thus far. I just cant take us down a path, That I truely feel is going to mess up our chances of getting into the final game. I mean nothing personal really, I just cant do that.

I sent an email to F-P, and posted at the BCE that I overstepped my bounds and please reinstate God King.

My apologizes to everyone

	16-12-2004 01:03									#11
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Dear PAL,

I regret to say it, but that mean little letter of mine got the results I wanted it to. I wish to apologize for the fact that it is insulting, but I knew that I had to shock you to get your attention to actually look and see what you are doing.

In this game it is obvious: you are the power. You have a score that is close to double ours, you have the Civ traits to out produce us, to out research us, to basically dominate this game. I congratulate you on your superior play.

The truth is that we want to be in an alliance with you. We want to work with you. We want to cooperate with you. The key here, however, is that we want to work with you, meaning cooperation and togetherness, and yet still being able to maintain ourselves as a separate entity, and a useful one at that. We wish that you could see the fact that we want to be able to contribute fairly with you. In order for us to be able to contribute, however, you must realize the position we are in. If helping us can help you, I would hope that you can see the benefits in that as well.

We obviously had different idea from day one on where the boundary between our nations should be, thus the Meeting Mountain and Crudetown Lines. Upon mutual request, we waited until the CDG war was over before discussing this. You then posted your ideas, giving what you perceived as concessions, making your concerns and ideas clear. As we looked over your ideas, it became obvious that you were not perceiving many of the ideas that we held to be important to us, specifically important to us is the idea of where we wanted our FP to be located and that we want it to be a surrounded by our cities so that it will actually be productive. We came up with a counter offer, including concepts from your proposals, what we ourselves perceived as some concessions, and presented it to you.

Your response was short and to the point, and similar to many other statements made by your team in the past. Poly was offered 4 options, choose one. Period. No discussion, no compromise, no recognition of the important items that were of concern to Poly. Simply put, here you go, choose one, and be glad that we are offering you a choice.

So, I did the only thing I could think of. I insulted you. With that insult, you responded the way I though and hoped. You were shocked, outraged, angered, and, most importantly to me and my team, you showed that you were willing to discuss items of our concern with us.

So, in all honestly, I think PAL needs to make a decision before we can proceed. Does PAL want a partner, or do you want a servant? Obviously, PAL is in the driver’s seat in this game, and we will abide by whatever decision you make. Do you want to dictate to us, or work with us? Do you want to discuss things with us, or tell us what to do? From our standpoint, you have said that you want to do the first, but your actions and statements have been towards the second. If you want to work with us, then work with us. Discuss your concerns. Make them clear. We will do the same. In doing so, we hope that we can come to a resolution. If you would prefer the servant for this game, then simply state so now, and we will adjust ourselves accordingly. Either way, this needs to be resolve first and foremost prior to us being able to continue in any other regards within this game.

In the hopes that you do want to work with us, I suggest the following for this subject in particular. We both now know what each other is looking for, but we have no idea of the importance each side places on various points. I would suggest that each of us take the time and list out what we both perceive to be the factors in this discussion, and to place them into two lists, based on importance to your team, and importance that you think the other team places upon the item. For example:

Issue Poly Importance (1-10) PAL importance (1-10)
Poly units on Mtn. 2 not very 8 Very

As you can see, we really don’t care much about it, and would be willing to easily give up on the entire idea. It is, for us, a little thing to assuage the fears of a small yet vocal minority within our team. For you, this appears to be a fairly significant item. You feel that you have shown us significant trust within the game (as you have) and in your communications (something I would argue). You have also stated in the past that you wish to post sentries within our territory, which this issue is obviously related to.

If you choose to have us play the servant, than I know that I and I suspect that a number of our more active persons within our team will slowly become lurkers until the next game. Con will probably take over all our communications, and we can probably eliminate the joint forum as well. Our team will not be nearly as efficient, but will be yours to control.

Again, I wish to apologize for insulting you. If you have read all of this so far, you no doubt realize that it was obviously not my intention, but the only way I knew of to get your attention to the actual matter at hand. I thank you for your time.

GK – MOI in absencia for Apolyton


NOTE - this is a quick first draft, that I did here at work.... comments appreciated.

	16-12-2004 01:51									#12
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Take out the part about con doing all the communications.

If this gets so bad that all they are doing is dictating to us, Ill be stepping down.

If this is what the team wants then send it. Ill take a look for some other things later. I gotta work now as well.

	16-12-2004 03:31									#13
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GK's point is shared by me. If we do end up in a master/servant relationship, or at least a primary/secondary sort, then what we need to do is promote Con to Consul and let him finish out this portion of the game for us.

I think the rest of us are too proud to accept such an arrangement.

--Togas

	16-12-2004 03:56									#14
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If you are to proud to accept PALs proposals then lets just tell them no, tell them what we want, and say its not negotiable.

GK do you have that plan?

Is it essentially the one you gave to PAL in there forum?

Lets just tell them then we aren't interested, take our proposal or leave it.

	16-12-2004 04:12									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Our plan (the one I made) was one where were would be compromising on it. It was less than our original (the Crudetown Line), but more than what they were offering (their 4 proposals).

I never wanted to bring settlers, workers, and what not into the discussion. I wanted a simple border agreement. PAL appears to want to lump it all together, and go forward from there.

Nobody here wants to become PAL's b!tch. If they insist on that, I think we have to have a frank discussion amongst ourselves on appearing to appease PAL until we become sufficiently strong to just tell them to Flick off. And of course in the next game, we will probably just play FUBAR all over PAL just to do it.

I don't think it will go that far. I think they want to work with us, but FP is just acting like an arrogant SOB and it isn't comming over except as such. I know that he pissed off Togas a while ago. I know that you have worked to be his friend, and have to some extent played down and helped to alleviate the situation. However, we should only take so much sh!t before we start shoveling it back.

I don't mind working with them. I don't even mind taking a back seat to them, as it is obvious that PAL has done a better job than we have in this game. I do mind them treating us like children who have to be told when to go to bed. It is this attitude that must be changed if we are to work with them.

	16-12-2004 04:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Togas GK's point is shared by me. If we do end up in a master/servant relationship, or at least a primary/secondary sort, then what we need to do is promote Con to Consul and let him finish out this portion of the game for us. I think the rest of us are too proud to accept such an arrangement. --Togas

We are already there. We have a primary/secondary relationship. And Im not the only one who got us here, this whole team did, we sink or swim as a team, this is a team effort.

I hope we can as a team adapt to that situation.

The goal isn't to win this game (Thank god) its to survive.

	16-12-2004 04:28									#17
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I can live with being in the passenger seat. That isn't the issue. The problem is that by all appearences, PAL has acted like they just want us to be their slaves in this game. That, IMHO, isn't acceptable. They can kill us if they still have that huge horse army. We can hut the hell out of them if they try to do so. Once they have Gunpowder, we can no longer hurt them. Once they have Cavalry, we can be slaughtered at leasure. At that point, we best be prepared. At that point, this issue will be long past us. Hopefully, this will not even be an issue.

	16-12-2004 09:25									#18
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HERE IS MY EDITED AND REVISED LETTER. PLEASE POST YOUR COMMENTS AND THOUGHT ON IT. I INTEND ON POSTING IT EARLY TOMORROW OVER ON OUR JOINT BOARD.

Dear PAL,

I regret to say it, but that post of mine got the results I wanted it to. I wish to apologize for the fact that it is insulting, but I knew that I had to shock you to get your attention to actually look and see what you are doing. Please recognize also, that it was in response to an ongoing insult from your team.

In this game it is obvious: you are the power. You have a score that is close to double ours, you have the Civ traits to out produce us, to out research us, to basically dominate this game. I congratulate you on your superior play.

The truth is that we want to be in an alliance with you. We want to work with you. We want to cooperate with you. We wish that you could see the fact that we want to be able to contribute fairly with you. In order for us to be able to contribute, however, you must realize the position we are in. If helping us can help you, I would hope that you can see the benefits in that as well.

This discussion has brought to a head something I think we wanted to avoid. PAL has, from day one, stated that they wish to be in an alliance with us. Obviously, we are unequal at this time, so it would not be an even exchange. We understood and agreed to that. However, from day one, PAL has treated us not as partners, but as servants to do your bidding. We have, as a team, understood that you are the leading part of this partnership, and as such, we have taken what you have shoveled out. However, this attitude has alienated many people on our team to the members of your team. One of our consuls (leaders) generally refuses to even speak to your team because of the condescending attitude you have had with us.

So, in all honestly, I think PAL needs to make a decision before we can proceed. Does PAL want a partner, or do you want a servant? Do you want to dictate to us, or work with us? Do you want to discuss things with us, or tell us what to do? If you want to work with us, then work with us. Discuss your concerns. Make them clear. We will do the same. In doing so, we hope that we can come to a resolution. If you would prefer the servant for this game, then simply state so now, and we will adjust ourselves accordingly. Either way, this needs to be resolve first and foremost prior to us being able to continue in any other regards within this game.

If you do not understand how we are being insulted, I suggest you read the letters that have been official correspondence from your team to us. This latest example is prime. Per your request, we let you discuss and post your ideas for a border solution first. We reviewed and discussed those proposals, and came to understand (we believe) those ideas that you considered important. We had our own ideas, and we felt that they were not being adequately addressed. Therefore, we presented our own proposal. If PAL had actually taken the time to analyze it, they would have found that there were not many differences in it from your proposal #2. Instead of analyzing and discussing it, however, we get a testy message that says that we should be happy to be in contact with you, you have the 4 options, there will be no discussion or compromising, you just have to pick one. Can someone please explain just how this is being a partner? If it wasn’t going to be a discussion, a negotiation, and was just going to be PAL dictating to us, I know I sure would have preferred to know that up front. It would have saved me and my team a lot of effort.

GK – MOI in absencia for Apolyton

	16-12-2004 09:45									#19
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If this is the letter the consuls want send it.

I have stated in the other thread that I think this is the wrong approach with this group.

IMHO the best way to handle what happened is to just say OK it happened, we regret the misunderstanding but lets get down to business, what exactly dont you like about our proposal? We give on the points we dont care about, hopefully they wont ***** about all of it and we may get more than our minimally acceptable bargain. and we have an agreement.

	16-12-2004 09:59									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I have to go with con here. they are offering us 45% and they will settle parts of it for us (giving us the cities) and we are slapping their hand away?

Do I have it wrong, or do we have a deathwish?

	16-12-2004 10:02									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

btw, we're dead shortly after they decide we're dead. They don't need cav to kill us. The only thing that is going to prevent them from taking us out is good will. That front is a nightmare no matter how you try to defend it.

	16-12-2004 10:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do I have it wrong, or do we have a deathwish?

Thanks I have been trying to hint around at that all day.

All I want to do is survive, thats the name of the game this round.

NYE good to see ya around here, its been a while

	16-12-2004 13:49									#23
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Don't hint. Be direct. At least with your own team. You are in a cat fight for the soul of the team when there is a contentious decision to be made. Not everyone is going to agree with you, but you don't really give anyone the benefit of your knowledge if you don't paint an explicit picture for them.

It seems to me that we have a choice. Be content with the junior role in a 'partnership', or go out on our pride.

It is a 'partnership' only so far as PAL sees it. Vassalage would be more accurate. That is the real issue we should be discussing. Do we accept the foreign kings, or do we go Scottish?

	16-12-2004 17:05									#24
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You must all think I'm crazy here...

I am glad their four proposals are as even as they are so far. I though it would start out with them wanting to slam it even further into our collective *ss then this! That said, a bit of negotiation would not go awry, in my eyes, and I really think we can do this.

GK, that is mostly a very good letter. Will try to have another more detailed look at it once I've done the save (about to start when I've finished all this posting).

Here's an additional point I want to try to press with PAL on the forums: I want this 'us and them' bollocks to end. These are our sworn partners, whatever the sudden disagreements. I have enjoyed friendly banter on the joint forum, and I think that even disagreements on matters as important as this can be easily calmly worked out. I think of it as a difference in political beliefs, perhaps. None of us are actually trying to kill Arn, for example, despite him being a supporter of spawn of monkey and Satan.... Oh wait... you're a supporter of that creature too aren't you con? Friends can disagree on important things and find a way to cope. 'Tis no huge deal, I feel.

In short, I hope to sell to PAL that they can chat with me, and hopefully some other Poly members, no matter what the tension amongst our teams. And that is I believe the start to the resolution of any problem - the ability and willingness to communicate. I intend to start this now. I believe I have Poly's best interests at heart and in mind, yet I will fight for them from the inside, and hopefully not distance myself from them.

Sound like a plan?

	16-12-2004 19:12									#25
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Look. I want to hear a consensus on if I should sent that letter or not. If the team decides that it is its best interest to not send it, my intention is to reword it and send it to FP as an email, so that he realizes what he is doing, and we can work around it. If that is the case, it will very much be from me to him, not from Poly to him, or from Poly to PAL. I will then post something similar to my analysis (in our other thread) to get the border discussion back on track.

	16-12-2004 19:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt You must all think I'm crazy here... I am glad their four proposals are as even as they are so far. I though it would start out with them wanting to slam it even further into our collective *ss then this! That said, a bit of negotiation would not go awry, in my eyes, and I really think we can do this. GK, that is mostly a very good letter. Will try to have another more detailed look at it once I've done the save (about to start when I've finished all this posting). Here's an additional point I want to try to press with PAL on the forums: I want this 'us and them' bollocks to end. These are our sworn partners, whatever the sudden disagreements. I have enjoyed friendly banter on the joint forum, and I think that even disagreements on matters as important as this can be easily calmly worked out. I think of it as a difference in political beliefs, perhaps. None of us are actually trying to kill Arn, for example, despite him being a supporter of spawn of monkey and Satan.... Oh wait... you're a supporter of that creature too aren't you con? Friends can disagree on important things and find a way to cope. 'Tis no huge deal, I feel. In short, I hope to sell to PAL that they can chat with me, and hopefully some other Poly members, no matter what the tension amongst our teams. And that is I believe the start to the resolution of any problem - the ability and willingness to communicate. I intend to start this now. I believe I have Poly's best interests at heart and in mind, yet I will fight for them from the inside, and hopefully not distance myself from them. Sound like a plan?

I dont think you are crazy at all, I think you are right on the money.

And on the being a "supporter of the monkey satan spawn, not only am I supoorter, Im one of those spawns myself

@NYE good point and thanks for your input. :B:

And I miss having you around, I kind of wish you would visit more often and set me straight

I again dont concur with GK's letter, not the intent just the delivery. But I will bow to the will of the team.

	16-12-2004 23:03									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Now that the letter has been written and we've been able to vent our feelings, you have to ask yourself if you still feel that the matter is unresolved.

If this is going to be a continuous problem, then we need to have a frank talk with our "friend" about the problem and speak our mind. Friends are honest with friends.

However, if this is just us getting rubbed the wrong way by the attitude of our friend (which happens to us all IRL), we have to see if the occasional venting and ranting has allowed us to blow off steam and resolve our frustrations ... and then be able to get back to work sanely.

In my experience, long letters are bad. They're hardly ever read, and only the most emotional stuff gets remembered. The longer the letter, the worse it is. The more damaging it is.

So if we still feel that there is an unresolved issue here regarding our relationship, let's make it simple and peaceful and honest. If we just feel that it's F-P's bad attitude, then let's fuss about it privately and move on.

IMO, it's FP's attitude that irks me. I don't think it's PAL itself. That may come as a surprise to some of you, but it's been my position for a while now. All of the other PAL types I've interacted with have been fine, reasonable guys. And PAL's moment to stab us has come and gone. I don't think they're "up to no good", I just don't happen to like their leader very much.

--Togas

	16-12-2004 23:34									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I just don't happen to like their leader very much. --Togas

Well you will be happy to know that F-P is stepping down as the PAL President and Alski is taking the reigns.

I agree with your post in principle.

I think getting thru this border negotiation will eventually strenghten those one to one ties.

F-P can irritate us all at times, just dont let it get to you. My only goal is to use him to get what we want and thats survival and advancement to the next game.

Lets focas on getting this border issue settled and move on from there.

	17-12-2004 00:35									#29
	Remove this text

The letter seems OK - it's just an excuse and more explaining than the first reaction of Godking.

GK, IMO you can post it
and we don't have to think what might FP say or do - he is no PAL, and he is no more their leader AFAIK

	17-12-2004 00:40									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

To tell the truth, I think we do need to call them on this. I think that we need to tell FP that the attitude he has portrayed to us in his official correspondence is poor at best. He needs to realize that his words have caused alienation, not the actions of his team and ours. It isn’t fair and reasonable to ask us to discuss something, and then when we say something they don’t agree with, to cop an attitude and tell us to go to hell.

However, as I think I have made aware, it need not be public. I have already started down this path, and I am committed to finishing it. I don’t know if it is the fact that FP is a great civ player (he is), or if he is acting up for his team or if he is trying to appease members of his team. I don’t really care. It just has to stop.

The fact that he has stepped down as prez, but is still working with the APO – PAL communications department, is what has me concerned. Will it stop? I don’t know.

PS – yes, it is and I freely admit personal as well as business. I cannot, nor will I separate the two when we are talking about playing a game.