15-12-2004 20:54									#31
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Apple is bad for consumers, period.

They don't believe in the free market.

	15-12-2004 21:33									#32
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quote: Apple is bad for consumers, period. They don't believe in the free market.

And Microsoft do?

I suppose that the three people who bought songs off of Real might be annoyed, but who cares about them?

	15-12-2004 23:06									#33
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DOWN WITH ALL PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE!!!!

LINUX RULES!!

LIN-PODS NOW !!!

	15-12-2004 23:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Apple is bad for consumers, period. They don't believe in the free market. And Microsoft do?

Apparently.

MS has their own online music store, but their media player also integrates with competing stores, and they license their codec to anyone who asks.

Nice troll attempt, but it fails due to your lack of knowledge.

	15-12-2004 23:26									#35
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apple will be the next MS when

A.You HAVE to buy Ipod (or whatever), cause like you need your home ipod to be easily compatible with your one at work, and at work they use apple. B. You buy Ipod cause theres hardly any music for other players. C. You try to use non apple software and you are regularly frustrated trying to exchange files with people.

Ive been in all of these situations. Im have been frustrated as hell over the years with MS products, but when ive tried alternatives found it quite difficult - and im NOT enough of a computer geek to rely on all the computer geek solutions you guys are gonna offer.


M$

	15-12-2004 23:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark apple will be the next MS when A.You HAVE to buy Ipod (or whatever), cause like you need your home ipod to be easily compatible with your one at work, and at work they use apple.

This is already true, provided your work uses the iTunes Music Store as well (which effectively has a monopoly on the legal music download market, like MS has with desktop Oses)

quote: B. You buy Ipod cause theres hardly any music for other players.

This has nothing to do with Microsoft or Apple, but independent software vendors/record labels.

quote: C. You try to use non apple software and you are regularly frustrated trying to exchange files with people.

Already true with popular formats like WMA and OGG.

	15-12-2004 23:45									#37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher

>This is already true, provided your work uses the iTunes Music Store as well (which effectively has a monopoly on the legal music download market, like MS has with desktop Oses)


yah, well, ive never worked anywhere that used a music store. Everywhere ive worked had PCs with OS's though. And i bought my first PC counting on being able to take work home. Having already been through the frustration of trying to share docs with another part of the firm that used macs, i decided we had to have a Win machine. I now work somewhere where were discouraged from doing work at home on an unapproved machine. But now my daughter has to get docs from the school system, etc.

My point is about the network economies that lock so many in to lousy software, and which M$ profits from.

	16-12-2004 00:18									#38
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Mac OS X can exchange files with Windows.

If you have Mac OS Classic (8 or 9), you have to get a program called PCMACLAN and install that on every Windows PC. It's not free however and I don't like it.
Alternatively you can get an admin to set up a Linux Box and install netatalk and samba and exchange files using this box as intermediate.

	16-12-2004 00:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark [QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher yah, well, ive never worked anywhere that used a music store.

Don't be so dense -- they're not saying Apple will monopolise the PC industry and lock out competition, just that they're doing it with the digital music industry.

	16-12-2004 00:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Don't be so dense -- they're not saying Apple will monopolise the PC industry and lock out competition, just that they're doing it with the digital music industry.

I guess i dont see all the same drivers of network economies in music as in the PC industry. You buy a player, you find a store, as long as the stores exist, youre free of everyone else. PCs youre kinda tied in with the rest of the world.

	16-12-2004 00:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Mac OS X can exchange files with Windows. If you have Mac OS Classic (8 or 9), you have to get a program called PCMACLAN and install that on every Windows PC. It's not free however and I don't like it. Alternatively you can get an admin to set up a Linux Box and install netatalk and samba and exchange files using this box as intermediate.

I knew y'all would get geeky on me.

	16-12-2004 00:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I guess i dont see all the same drivers of network economies in music as in the PC industry. You buy a player, you find a store, as long as the stores exist, youre free of everyone else. PCs youre kinda tied in with the rest of the world.

The issue is if you buy an Apple player, you're tied with Apple's music store and music software on your computer.

Period.

That's blatant vendor lock-in, compared to the free market tactics of MS.

It's a bit of a role reversal.

	16-12-2004 00:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The issue is if you buy an Apple player, you're tied with Apple's music store and music software on your computer. Period. That's blatant vendor lock-in, compared to the free market tactics of MS. It's a bit of a role reversal.

yeah, but you know about it when you buy the ipod. Your choice. Its like buying a printer, and then you gotta buy their overpriced ink. You are free to compare the ink prices when you buy the printer. Thats a free market. Vendor lockin isnt the opposite of free market, its another strategy IN a free market. The opposite of free market is monopoly power, and I see MS doing that, strengthened by network economies, and I dont see Apple doing that.

	16-12-2004 00:47									#44
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The only difference between Apple and MS is Apple has a far stronger grip. It's that reason that Apple isn't nearly as large and successful as MS is, and it's that reason that they aren't in trouble with anti-trust issues.

Apple is Microsoft, but more evil, and they even have a cult of followers that worship them and buy whatever they sell.

There's an interesting book out now called the "Cult of Mac".

	16-12-2004 00:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Apple is Microsoft, but more evil, and they even have a cult of followers that worship them and buy whatever they sell.

Gotta love it when the pot calls the kettle black

	16-12-2004 00:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Gotta love it when the pot calls the kettle black

'cept it's untrue, because I don't worship Microsoft, I don't buy everything they make (the only thing of theirs I buy is Xbox and Xbox games, come to think of it), and I frequently advocate alternatives to Microsoft products.

It's simple-minded idiots that dismiss my opinions as that of a fanboy, because their minds become overloaded when they ponder the thought that what I'm saying is perhaps objective and logical, and just disagrees with what they believe.

Windows is the best choice for consumer desktops. Period.

MacOS X is expensive and lacks software, with a flashy but questionable interface design.
Linux is inconsistent, lacks software, and is generally too difficult to maintain for a home user.

It's really that simple.

	16-12-2004 00:58									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 'cept it's untrue, because I don't worship Microsoft, I don't buy everything they make (the only thing of theirs I buy is Xbox and Xbox games, come to think of it), and I frequently advocate alternatives to Microsoft products. It's simple-minded idiots that dismiss my opinions as that of a fanboy, because their minds become overloaded when they ponder the thought that what I'm saying is perhaps objective and logical, and just disagrees with what they believe.

You are less of a zealot than our vocal Mac users, but you are a fanboy nonetheless. I precisely remember you arguing how superior IE was to Mozilla/Firefox because tabbed browsing was so confusing for the average user. When you assess Microsoft products, I have never seen you calling one of their product pure crap (which you often do against the competition). And whenever Microsoft is attacked, you are very defensive, such as what you are doing in this thread. You are a fanboy, even though you are not a fanatical zealot

	16-12-2004 01:02									#48
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quote: You are less of a zealot than our vocal Mac users, but you are a fanboy nonetheless. I precisely remember you arguing how superior IE was to Mozilla/Firefox because tabbed browsing was so confusing for the average user.

A few points:
1) At the time, IE was superior to Mozilla, and Firefox didn't exist
2) Tabbed browsing is confusing to the average user, which is why Firefox ships disabled with the new-windows-in-new-tabs option (my parents, for example, prefer new windows to new tabs).

quote: When you assess Microsoft products, I have never seen you calling one of their product pure crap (which you often do against the competition).

Sure I have.
1) IIS is pure crap
2) SQL Server is pure crap
3) Windows ME is pure crap
4) "MSN" is pure crap

quote: And whenever Microsoft is attacked, you are very defensive, such as what you are doing in this thread.

I only defend Microsoft when it's right to do so, because it's just so popular to mindlessly bash them.

For instance, in this case Microsoft is all about being open with their products and technology, and Apple is about locking you in. That's not so much defending Microsoft, as it is providing a reality check to how positions have reversed.

	16-12-2004 01:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 4) "MSN" is pure crap

Don't you use MSN ? I remember you flaunting the superiority of MSN, and I also remeber pics you posted which shoyed your pic in your MSN client.

	16-12-2004 01:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Don't you use MSN ? I remember you flaunting the superiority of MSN, and I also remeber pics you posted which shoyed your pic in your MSN client.

That's MSN Messenger.

I'm referring to "MSN", like "MSN Basic" and "MSN Premium"...it comes with many ISPs these days.

It's an annoyingly skinned version of IE and Outlook Express.

	16-12-2004 01:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The only difference between Apple and MS is Apple has a far stronger grip. It's that reason that Apple isn't nearly as large and successful as MS is, and it's that reason that they aren't in trouble with anti-trust issues. Apple is Microsoft, but more evil, and they even have a cult of followers that worship them and buy whatever they sell. There's an interesting book out now called the "Cult of Mac".

I fail to see what grip Apple has. You like apple and their store, you buy an ipod. You dont, you buy some other brand.

Windows i dont got that choice. Hell, as ive found over the years, you dont really got that choice with apps either. Our old PC came loaded with Lotus software, (Aptiva did that, you should know, asher) the Lotus software was great, till you actually had to exchange anything with anyone, where the incompatibilities with MS word and Excel always created headaches. Well im not making that mistake again. Despite yet another annoying bug in MS word, at work, that caused me to rekey part of a document, and that the orgs tech staff couldnt fix, I would still insist on MS apps, lousy or not, cause of the grief if i dont. Now THATS a grip.

	16-12-2004 01:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I fail to see what grip Apple has. You like apple and their store, you buy an ipod. You dont, you buy some other brand. Windows i dont got that choice.

Yes you do, you can use Linux or buy Apple.

If the majority of people use one format, and your software isn't compatible with it, that's not Microsoft's fault, nor its problem.

It's a totally different situation, one is the product's popularity "forcing" you to buy one of MS' products...and in Apple's case, it's Apple's greed preventing any competition from finding ways to be compatible with them to provide customers a more reasonable price for the music store.

	16-12-2004 01:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yes you do, you can use Linux or buy Apple. If the majority of people use one format, and your software isn't compatible with it, that's not Microsoft's fault, nor its problem. It's a totally different situation, one is the product's popularity "forcing" you to buy one of MS' products...and in Apple's case, it's Apple's greed preventing any competition from finding ways to be compatible with them to provide customers a more reasonable price for the music store.

Its called a network economy, and to the extent that MS has tried to reinforce that dominance, it IS MS's fault. And it results in less choice than Apples 'lockin".

Its not MS's problem? No its MS value proposition, is what it is. Its my problem, and the problem for millions of others, and its Gates fortune. The majority uses "one format" = but theyre locked in the same way I am.

Remember the PC i told about earlier? I had to buy windows cause my firm did. THEY had to buy windows, cause their clients, with whom they exchanged data, did so. Its an iron grip.

	16-12-2004 01:22									#54
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It's the market's grip, it's not MS' grip.

It would be MS' grip if they sued you for using another Office program on Windows and intentionally updated Windows to stop competitor's program from working on it. That's what Apple is doing here.

Do you see the difference?

	16-12-2004 01:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's the market's grip, it's not MS' grip. It would be MS' grip if they sued you for using another Office program on Windows and intentionally updated Windows to stop competitor's program from working on it. That's what Apple is doing here. Do you see the difference?

Its the path dependence. Calling it the markets grip implies that the market is currently making the choice. And MS benefits from it, and except where antitrust settlements stop it, encourages it.

Apple benefits from no path dependence. Its easy to buy a competitors product.

	16-12-2004 01:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Gotta love it when the pot calls the kettle black

People don't buy MS because it's a cult.

	16-12-2004 01:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People don't buy MS because it's a cult.

True, but that has nothing to do with my comment

	16-12-2004 01:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People don't buy MS because it's a cult.

i thought people bought apple products cause they like the look, and cause theyre easy to use, and are willing to pay more.

	16-12-2004 01:57									#59
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quote: It's a totally different situation, one is the product's popularity "forcing" you to buy one of MS' products...and in Apple's case, it's Apple's greed preventing any competition from finding ways to be compatible with them to provide customers a more reasonable price for the music store.

The problem is market dominance. Anyone dominating the market will dictate users.
However the cure for market dominance is the market itself. Within enough time reasonable alternatives will pop up. Things such as WineX emerge that make the "old" things compatible with the "new" ones and given enough time the market will divide more equally.
I don't want to give any dates on when Windows will have a significant market loss or what will be the "successor", it's just that eventually there will be one.

	16-12-2004 02:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa The problem is market dominance. Anyone dominating the market will dictate users. However the cure for market dominance is the market itself. Within enough time reasonable alternatives will pop up. Things such as WineX emerge that make the "old" things compatible with the "new" ones and given enough time the market will divide more equally. I don't want to give any dates on when Windows will have a significant market loss or what will be the "successor", it's just that eventually there will be one.

What makes me think that the demise of the PC will come first?