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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Heck, I have a hard time coming to an explanation myself.
First, there are the people who simply dislike Muslims. When the far-right amounts to 20% here, this is not an insignificant minority. Besides, the adhesion of Turkey would mean many immigrants indeed, and thus many people who are not necessarily racists fear it, cause it threatens their job. The same people are against the last wave of enlargement, which is blamed for the departure of many factories. |
Some say Turkish membership is seen as a real threat to "French Primacy" in Europe. How about all that talk about restrictions on movement of people from Turkey, doesn't this allay any fears in France?
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Second, there are people who don't consider Turkey to be in Europe, geographically speaking. It may sound absurd, but all French people were taught since school how Europe looks like. And on the map, Asia pretty clearly begins at Istanbul. This geographic consideration also implies the "where will Europe stop?" question. Dracon in his first post has expressed the point clearly enough. |
Just for curiosity, how about the the eastern end of Europe, how's it presented in those maps, the Urals? (that's where the widest definition of geographical Europe goes I guess). If so, theoretically, would people show less reaction at least on geographical grounds if Russia applied for membership?
Hey, rhetorical question but where would the eastern end of Europe be marked if there were no Ural mountains, if you think the wastness of greater Eurasia?
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Then, there are the people who think the EU needs a common culture, which obviously stems from Christianty  One could think this opinion is probably held not as strongly in France than in other EU countries (because we have an extreme relationship toward separation of Church and State), but the French public opinion is also one of the most enthusiastic for the creation of a EU "bloc", which would require a common culture |
Actually, this is has a certain irony to it if you consider the fact that Europe is by now largely atheist or oblivious towards religion.
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There are other factors which may weight, like the fear of Turkey's size, the fear that Turkey changes the EU, the opinion that Turkey cannot be ready before an extremely long time etc. But I think these factors don't affect the mass of people much.
Now, keep in mind this can be entirely false. As I said, I have trouble understanding the refusal of Turkey myself. But from the little I gathered, I think those are the main reasons. In France as in other countries. |
The sadder part is, in Turkey France has for a long time been seen as the leader of the idea of Enlightenment, and it has been the source of inspiration for Turkey's historical modernisation as well. France was an inspiration also in literature, arts, philosophy, sciences etc, there are many very old French high-schools in Turkey, many laws were adopted from the French Code, so on so forth which all resulted in a good amount of Francophilism. So the disappointment in Turkey about France these days is multiplied by that background.
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Namaste
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New Jersey
Nov 2003
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
well both our governments allowed it for the last expansion so what's to say they wouldn't do it again? |
Actually, they really didn't if I remember correctly. I believe there is a 6 year restriction on movement for citizens of the new central and eastern European member states. The EU would certainly be within its rights to impose a similar restriction on Turkish citizens once they enter the EU.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Some say Turkish membership is seen as a real threat to "French Primacy" in Europe. How about all that talk about restrictions on movement of people from Turkey, doesn't this allay any fears in France? |
I guess some people fear about it. But I don't think it weighs much. At least IMO, we'd have a much higher common understanding in geopolitical matters with the Turks than with the Brits / Poles.
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Just for curiosity, how about the the eastern end of Europe, how's it presented in those maps, the Urals? (that's where the widest definition of geographical Europe goes I guess). If so, theoretically, would people show less reaction at least on geographical grounds if Russia applied for membership? |
Actually, my belief is that if Russia only spanned to the Urals, a great many more people would accept the idea of their integration on principle. I may be wrong though, but the "look at the map of Europe" is probably the one I heard most often both for Turkey and Russia.
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Hey, rhetorical question but where would the eastern end of Europe be marked if there were no Ural mountains, if you think the wastness of greater Eurasia? |
Then the Eastern border of Europe would be at whatever place was the border of the Tsar's empire, when the Tsar wanted to show Russia was a "European" country some centuries ago  I'm not condoning this (the very idea to separate Europe from the rest of Asia, geographically wise, is artificial - the very idea of separating Europe from the rest of the Mediterranean and the Middle East, culturally wise, is artificial as well)
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Actually, this is has a certain irony to it if you consider the fact that Europe is by now largely atheist or oblivious towards religion. |
Agreed. I wonder how much of the argument is a pretext to mask something else, and how much of it is an actual attempt to have a unified culture centered about what little we have in common, i.e. Christianty.
It is a dumb argument IMHO. If tomorrow the rising, threatening power is polytheistic India, I imagine we'd try to form a great "Monotheistic Alliance" with the Muslims to counter it. And all the people who explain today that we must make a Christian Europe, will tell us how much us all monotheists have in common 
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The sadder part is, in Turkey France has for a long time been seen as the leader of the idea of Enlightenment, and it has been the source of inspiration for Turkey's historical modernisation as well. France was an inspiration also in literature, arts, philosophy, sciences etc, there are many very old French high-schools in Turkey, many laws were adopted from the French Code, so on so forth which all resulted in a good amount of Francophilism. So the disappointment in Turkey about France these days is multiplied by that background. |
This makes me sad as well. I had once the opportunity to talk with a Turk about it, when France officially acknowledged the existence of the Armenian genocide. His disappointment was very strong. I can only imagine how much stronger the disappointment is, even among the Francophiles now, given that the French public opinion as a whole doesn't merely reject what we percieve as a crime on the past, but reject the very Turkish country 
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:17
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I know that the EU is more integrated than NAFTA, but...
NAFTA transfers wealth by way of jobs. It is not a welfare program. Still, the jobs that moved to Mexico have the desired effect. Mexico gets more wealth, and they decide for themselves how to spend it, rather than being told from some centre what to do. It is very... 'American.'
The border is closed in theory, but in practice it is a sieve,and consecutive waves of migrants find tacit if not official recognition in the end. Eventually, the border will be as open to Mexico as it has been bewteen the US and Canada for 50 years (longer actually).
Different circumstances, yes. However, the US entered into an arrangement with a nation a full third their size where the gulf of wealth was vastly greater than that between 'Europe' and Turkey is. Canada tagged along because, well, we couldn't think of a good reason not to, and it dovetailed well with our ideas of actually doing something to help the rest of the world join the first.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Namaste
Actually, they really didn't if I remember correctly. I believe there is a 6 year restriction on movement for citizens of the new central and eastern European member states. The EU would certainly be within its rights to impose a similar restriction on Turkish citizens once they enter the EU. |
every EU country blocked full rights for eastern europeans for 7 years, with the exception of britain, ireland and denmark. and of course every country would be well within its rights to do that, i'm just questioning if mine in particular actually would.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:17
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i'm not sure how many have come here nationwide. 100s have however moved to where my parents live, which is a very unremarkable part of rural england, so i'm guessing that there's been a fair old number come over in the country as a whole.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Agreed. I wonder how much of the argument is a pretext to mask something else, and how much of it is an actual attempt to have a unified culture centered about what little we have in common, i.e. Christianty.
It is a dumb argument IMHO. If tomorrow the rising, threatening power is polytheistic India, I imagine we'd try to form a great "Monotheistic Alliance" with the Muslims to counter it. And all the people who explain today that we must make a Christian Europe, will tell us how much us all monotheists have in common |
You're probably right. It's always a conflict and a common threat that bring people together, and EU was supposed to represent a new philosophy to change that pattern. In that sense, Turkey's membership process might be the first true test of that philosophy.
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This makes me sad as well. I had once the opportunity to talk with a Turk about it, when France officially acknowledged the existence of the Armenian genocide. His disappointment was very strong. I can only imagine how much stronger the disappointment is, even among the Francophiles now, given that the French public opinion as a whole doesn't merely reject what we percieve as a crime on the past, but reject the very Turkish country |
Overall, I think the feeling in Turkey about France after the genocide slant and the recent EU episode is still not outright animosity, but a certain bitterness is definitely building up. The fact that virtually all the politicans that matter in France (like Sarkozy) are very hostile towards Turkey only makes it more worrying, in the sense that there's no strong counter-voice. It's as if everybody's afraid to say anything positive about Turkey, as if the whole issue is politically poisonous...
In related news, Chirac apparently was the only EU leader (apart from the Greek Cypriot, of course) who did not congratulate Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister, after the summit. Actually, he walked away in haste in the other direction as soon as he saw Erdogan approaching in his direction. 
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Atahualpa
What percentage of turks would want to join the EU?
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According to the latest polls, it's as high as 70-75%.
quote:
Originally posted by Atahualpa
Btw, a recent poll in a newspaper here shows that turks are seen as the least willing to integrate.
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Once again, what are the minimum parametres of "integration"? If there were, say, 1.000.000 Spaniards moving to Germany, when would they be considered integrated? Would there be a need for them to "integrate" inthe first place? If not, why it's not the same for the Turks?
quote:
Originally posted by Atahualpa
The turks that have come to work and live in Europe, have not really established a positive image. |
A vast majority came from villages from central-eastern Anatolia in the 1960s, a time when many villages didn't even have electricity and cars were a curiosity for many. They were particularly selected to be as little qualified as possible, since such jobs were the most in demand in the "Wirtschaftswunder" era of Germany. They reacted by clamming up, and were not helped by the Germans to feel at home, treated as "guests" who were supposed to leave when the show's over, so they had even less incentives to even learn the language.
As a result, yes they did not "establish a postive image". But the inttelligent, intellectual and progressive-minded European Public did not care to realise Turkey itself changed tremendously since the 1960s. I guess the European image of Turkey is still an extrapolation from the first generation Turks in Europe (enter here "you can marry 4 women in your country?" "you don't look Turkish to me!" etc etc).
European parochialism:
European self-righteousness:
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Colon
I'm pretty much undecided, but I do know that if they want to get in, they will have to recognize Cyprus. You can't enter a club if you deny one of its members' right to exist you know. 
I also hope that we can agree they can only enter on our terms and our terms only. (provided we do not demand higher standards than we did from past applicants) |
Here is the chronicle of European double standards about Cyprus:
1) The very fact that "Cyprus" was admitted in the Union despite the ongoing crisis on the island. This unprecedented decision is against the hitherto established European custom for not importing problems into the EU and for having the parties solve it by themselves beforehand. It therefore had the net result of making the EU a direct party in what was essentially a bilateral problem.
2) The EU threw its full weight behind a very comprehensive UN plan for the unification of the island. Turkey changed its 30 year old policies to accept that plan which foresaw the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the island and establishment of a federal union based on equal partnership.
The EU not only endorsed that plan as the most fair solution to the Cyprus problem, but made its adoption a requirement in the accession protocol for "Cyprus", for "Cyprus" to become a member. This in addition to the fact that the agreements founding "the Republic of Cyprus" in 1960 stipulate that Cyprus cannot be a member of any third grouping in which both Turkey and Greece are not both members.
3) The Turks in the north voted in support for the plan, Greeks against. Despite the accession protocol and despite the founding agreements of the very Cyprus for which Greek Cypriots have a pretension to stand for, the government of the south was admitted in the Union with the right to represent the whole island. Nevermind the fact that they themselves rejected the very plan that would truly made them representatives of the whole island.
4) There was much indignation in Europe about the un-European conduct of the Greek Cypriot government in the referendum, much chastisement of the Greek Cypriots, much talk of the need to reward the Turkish Cypriots for their courage, that it would be unfair to punish them, that it would be fair to lift the isolation of the North, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah in the truest European fashion of sincerity.
5) Not only none of these European promises did not materialise, Europeans suddenly realised that hey, Greek Cypriots now have a veto power over decisions now that they are in. Never mind all of the above, now Turkey is required to "recognise" the Greek South as the sole representative of the whole island.
No matter how many inconsistencies exist in the issue, it's now "you've gotta recognize our brother, how else are you going to join in". Yeah, right. :applause:
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18-12-2004 11:53
Why on earth is this myth still alive? Cocoa is not vital part of the French economy. The claim that France led an UN administred coalition to upkeep peace and avoid genocide in the area in order to keep the price of a trivial commodity (which can be produced in France, btw) down is just absurd.
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