20-12-2004 13:06									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa And what are the reasons? Why would they want to be a full member of the european union?

The reasons are much less to do with economics. Sure in Turkey people believe EU will bring increased prosperity but that's not as a result of an expectations of massive funds from the EU, rather as a result of the massive flow of foreign investment with the rubber stamp of the EU on the Turkish economy. At least that's what I can gather from the overall tone of expectations in the Turkish media.

The real reasons go way back to the ideals behind the establishment of the Republic in Turkey and the consequent process to overcome the reactionary/religious habits from the Ottoman times. It was a long struggle to establish secularism and Western ideas/ideals, and it was not easy to overcome habits of religious thinking (early decades of the republic).

The subconscious reflection of all sudden and dramatic changes in public life was that by adopting these we are not leaving behind our identity, our religion, our nationality. These are universal values, not civilisational. By 1970s, the system was well established, but only in the 1990s that the system accepted the fact that religious parties are ok as long as they accept the rules, that a Muslim equivalent of Christian democrats is all right.

From this historical perspective, the EU membership is the next logical step, a natural thing to do, like finally joining the fold from which the whole philosophy of the republic was inspired.

quote: The difference is that this wouldn't happen. Generally I think someone is integrated when under his friends he can list a good number of locals.

But my question was rhetorical, I meant would the Spaniards be considered as not part of the society if they didn't, say, have most of his friends from among locals.

quote: OTOH what would you say when e.g. germans discover some nice places in turkey and all buy houses there that they occupy only 2 months during the summer? Like they did in Mallorca.

Actually this is exactly what's happening. The number of Germans (mostly seniors) who has a house in Turkey for summer runs in the tens of thousands, according to piece of news that I remember reading some time ago. Many thousands even stay permanently there, and apparently they get along well with the locals.

quote: Well, I don't care if someone is given incentives or not, if you don't speak the language, you can't communicate and you will always be the idiot-worker in the eyes of others. You get no respect if you cannot talk properly.

Sure, but Europeans (since they are not ones who are idiot-workers) can also make an effort to understand the reasons behind the lack of integration including lack of language, and then think of what to do to help them integrate instead of blaming the immigrants for everything.

quote: In the 1960's nobody was even aware of turkey. How should we notice that you've changed when we don't know how you've been. The general public is really unaware of turkey or its history. ...

I'm not blaming Europeans for not knowing enough about Turkey, but now that the EU membership issue is at hand, not knowing about Turkey is part of the problem, the primary reason for fears about Turkey. I can only hope this wil change in the future.

quote: I knew a turk once who was really funny and such. He led a small user platform for better broadband connectivity, that I joined and supported with some money. I didn't even notice that he was turkish until he sent me a picture of him. Perfect german and such and quite smart. He also sent me two great songs by Ibrahim Tatlises!

	20-12-2004 13:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Colon I don't think you get it. This is a practical issue: you cannot enter if you don't recognize Cyprus, no more than you cannot enter if you wouldn't recognize Malta either. Your history of double standards that would have taken place is pretty much irrelevant in this sense. And in case it makes you feel any better, we will shove Turkey's membership down Cyprus' throat as we will shove the recognition of Cyprus down Turkey's throat.

Europe knew it would come to that when they were admitting "Cyprus" in. So the EU decided to make itself a party to the problem and as such they can't come forward as clean as otherwise and say "you've gotta do as we say".

This is a crucial difference, and Turkey will never recognise the administration of the South, but rather only the New Cyprus that would emerge after a solution is found to the Cyprus problem, presumably before the negotiations are completed. Hopefully, the EU will put the necessary pressure on its recalcitrant member.

The continuance of the problem is squarely the result of Greek Cypriots by now and the EU has to remember this before trying to ram anything down anywhere.

It's a typical example of how Europe acts on procedure (but they are now a member!) instead of principled policy, it's this very attitude that is so exasperating. (if my point is not taken, you would still be tempted as a response to reiterate "but they are in and you have to recognise them" ).

	20-12-2004 13:45									#153
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Immigration is a hot issue, but at has been for quite some time. (I'm speaking decades here) I must say that the murder of Theo van Gogh didn't change that much. The issue has shifted to the issue of extremism. Personally I don't have major problems with immigrants, and the issue of integration is really a two way street. You should know that the official designation of a 'foreigner' (the PC term here is 'allochtoon') is anybody who doesn't have two full-blooded Dutch as parents. I guess it is pretty hard to become/feel integrated if you will be designated an 'allochtoon'in any case. But returning back to the Turks in the Netherlands, a recent study showed that it is expected that among the 'small business owners', the largest group will be the Turks in one or two years. I'm aware such figures don't tell the full story, but one cannot discard such figures either. (and yes, by definition all the young turks born here, with either one or two parents being immigrants will fall under the category 'Turks' in this survey.) Regarding Turkey's entry into the EU, I do not hold much opposition. I think Turkey would fit very well within the EU. Turkey shares as much with the EU as Slovakia, the Baltic states and the future members of Rumania, Bulgaria and Croatia. In fact, I think Turkey is one of the examples that Islam and Western Enlightment are not mutually exclusive, and it is a bless for Europe that such a state wants to join us. If the west is to spread Enlightment and combat muslim extremism, one of the best courses of action would be to welcome those muslims that share the views of Enlightment. The EU was formed to prevent a WWIII through economic cooperation. If the EU is too cling to that incentive (as I think it should), then the EU should try very hard to get Turkey aboard. And as I argued earlier, many Turks already live in Europe, and as far as I know they have not caused major trouble in the last 40 years. I don't see why they would turn nasty all of a sudden when their motherland has become part of the EU.

	20-12-2004 13:53									#154
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Oh, we already have plenty. A few more won't hurt. You are aware that Berlin is Turkeys third most populous city, are you

That's only a figuration I guess.

Here are the top cities in Turkey populationwise, numbers adjusted marginally to make up for the time since the 2000 census:

Istanbul: 11 million
Ankara: 4 million
İzmir: 3 million
Adana: 1.5 million
Bursa: 1.5 million
Konya: 1.2 million
Antalya: 1 million
Gaziantep: 1 million
Mersin: 1 million
Şanliurfa: almost 1 million.

This in addition to numerous cities in the 0.5 - 1 million range. What exactly is the number of the Turks in Berlin?

	20-12-2004 15:00									#155
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Thx for the answer Ancryean!

quote: Sure, but Europeans (since they are not ones who are idiot-workers) can also make an effort to understand the reasons behind the lack of integration including lack of language, and then think of what to do to help them integrate instead of blaming the immigrants for everything.

Yes of course, but you have to remember that first when you migrate to another country, don't speak the language and don't know the ways you only get low-paid jobs. And in low-paid jobs where education doesn't matter, all it comes down is wage. And as immigrants generally work for cheaper in the beginning, every native worker would see them as threat to his living standard and rather not help them.

There _are_ much thoughts that get put into integration, but nobody really knows how to solve it yet.

quote: I'm not blaming Europeans for not knowing enough about Turkey, but now that the EU membership issue is at hand, not knowing about Turkey is part of the problem, the primary reason for fears about Turkey. I can only hope this wil change in the future.

Absolutely! There should get some documentaries done that can be broadcasted on TV, educating the general public. And about the new EU members as well.

	20-12-2004 23:28									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Maybe he is as stuck in his conception that Europe must be a religious entity as you are?

And I am?

	20-12-2004 23:30									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson And I am?

You oppose Turkey's entry on the ground that it is a Muslim country that cannot fit into our Christian club, so yes.

	20-12-2004 23:41									#158
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I do?

	21-12-2004 01:05									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean That's only a figuration I guess. ... This in addition to numerous cities in the 0.5 - 1 million range. What exactly is the number of the Turks in Berlin?

I've been fooled

Berlin is the second largest EUROPEAN city. (Istanbul being the largest. duh.)

Given that Turkey has hardly any territory in Europe, that shouldn't be too hard

Figures via google vary around a quarter of a million for Berlin.

	21-12-2004 01:57									#160
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It's a damned shame that Turkey's membership of the EU is threatened by petty-minded Europeans. Turkey should take some comfort from the fact that a Europe which rejects Turkey is not worth joining anyway.

	21-12-2004 02:13									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean Europe knew it would come to that when they were admitting "Cyprus" in. So the EU decided to make itself a party to the problem and as such they can't come forward as clean as otherwise and say "you've gotta do as we say". This is a crucial difference, and Turkey will never recognise the administration of the South, but rather only the New Cyprus that would emerge after a solution is found to the Cyprus problem, presumably before the negotiations are completed. Hopefully, the EU will put the necessary pressure on its recalcitrant member. The continuance of the problem is squarely the result of Greek Cypriots by now and the EU has to remember this before trying to ram anything down anywhere. It's a typical example of how Europe acts on procedure (but they are now a member!) instead of principled policy, it's this very attitude that is so exasperating. (if my point is not taken, you would still be tempted as a response to reiterate "but they are in and you have to recognise them" ).

1.Our "attachment" to procedures is part of our legal culture. If Turkey can't stand it: they're not forced to apply for membership.

2.I didn't say it was a good thing to let the Greek bit enter on its own, nor that the issue isn't one of our problems.

3.I repeat: you cannot refuse to recognize a member if you want to part of the EU. Imagine yourself a EU meeting about farming subsidies where member A denies member B's right to exist and to be present at the table. That simply cannot work. Fairness had little to do with this.

If Turkey refuses to recognize Cyprus under any terms what-so-ever (which I very much doubt so they already did so indirectly): nobody forces them to apply.

	21-12-2004 10:44									#162
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Figures via google vary around a quarter of a million for Berlin.

250.000? Wow, that's still surprisingly high.

I've heard about Kreuzberg and how much it looks like a Turkish town (city?), but I didn't know about the quarter of a million figure.

	21-12-2004 11:00									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Colon 1.Our "attachment" to procedures is part of our legal culture. If Turkey can't stand it: they're not forced to apply for membership. 2.I didn't say it was a good thing to let the Greek bit enter on its own, nor that the issue isn't one of our problems. 3.I repeat: you cannot refuse to recognize a member if you want to part of the EU. Imagine yourself a EU meeting about farming subsidies where member A denies member B's right to exist and to be present at the table. That simply cannot work. Fairness had little to do with this. If Turkey refuses to recognize Cyprus under any terms what-so-ever (which I very much doubt so they already did so indirectly): nobody forces them to apply.

I understand the awkwardness it would create to assume to enter the Union without recognising one of the existing members.

What I additionally mean is that if Turkey recognises the South as the legitimate government of all Cyprus, it will be awkward then to keep on recognising the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). If Turkey further withdraws recognition from TRNC to be consistent with its recoginiton of the South as the sole representative of the island, then the North will effectively be left to collapse without the support it gets from Turkey.

If you understand the kind of dilemma this would create for Turkey, the only feasible way is acceptance of a general solution by Greeks and Turks on the island (which the Turks already have), and for Turkey to recognise the new Cyprus that will emerge from that solution, an integrated, unified new Cyprus based on equal partnership of all communitirs.

Until then, Turkey is not in a position to recognise the South as the sole and legal representative for the whole island. For its part, the EU by already having accepted the South in, should put approppriate pressure on the South to drop its recalcitrance for a solution and agree to the unification plan. This should come about before the membership negotiations of Turkey is concluded.

That's why EU now has a responsibility to help Greek Cypriots come to an agreement for unification, or else it was never sincere about Turkey's membership if it simply adopts an oblivious approach towards the whole problem to which it's a full party ("it's not my problem, solve it and only then you can become a member!") and expects Turkey to pay for the parochial nationalistic attitude of Greek Cypriots.

	21-12-2004 12:13									#164
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Yep, EU is part of the Cyprus mess now.

I think it is a bit more problematic than say the Basque mess, or northern Ireland mess, but still not impossible to solve.

The problem is, while I see the way pressure will be applied to Turkey, I don't see any possibility for EU to pressure Cyprus in a meaningful way. They're members now, it's not like they're going to be kicked out, they can't be blackmailed over funds either, since they're not that poor... they can theoretically hold their position forever.

	21-12-2004 12:26									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean Islamic revolution a la Iran is surreal in the Turkish context, but wouldn't you agree that many with limited knowledge/interest to distinguish between Turkey and some other disagreeable examples in the Muslim world would find this hard to differentiate?

Of course. Take me for example, I'm above averagely interested both in history and in current EU matters among the people I know, and I still don't know too much about Turkey. I also have my reservations (mostly about the speed at which reforms can be pursued).

quote: Of course, if one would argue that a country's being Christian is the only ultimate guarantee that no Islamic revolution take place, then there's no way Turkey would meet the requirements of this proposition.

Also, thanks for the explanation about the way radical parties are controlled.

	21-12-2004 12:57									#166
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Yep, EU is part of the Cyprus mess now. I think it is a bit more problematic than say the Basque mess, or northern Ireland mess, but still not impossible to solve. The problem is, while I see the way pressure will be applied to Turkey, I don't see any possibility for EU to pressure Cyprus in a meaningful way. They're members now, it's not like they're going to be kicked out, they can't be blackmailed over funds either, since they're not that poor... they can theoretically hold their position forever.

The EU has its ways of pressuring its members, nevertheless. And the Greek Cypriots do not have straight enough a face to garner much of a sympathy or support from their fellow members after their unexpected rejection of the UN plan.

In light of EU's full foreknowledge that it will be a party to the Cyprus problem, ultimately its willingness to apply pressure on the Greek Cypriots will be the true measure of how much EU as an institution values the membership of Turkey.

If that value is regarded low, it will stay oblivious to the quandary it creates for Turkey and let the Greek Cypriots use the EU as a blackmail tool against Turkey, whereas Turkey will not indefinitely bow down to every demand of the EU, particularly ones of such dubious quality like its (EUs) conduct on Cyprus.