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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Overall, I think the feeling in Turkey about France after the genocide slant and the recent EU episode is still not outright animosity, but a certain bitterness is definitely building up. |
I can understand that. At least, the genocide issue does correspond to the French values, so it's somehow "worth" it to disappoint the Turks about it. But the rejection of Turkey's entry in the EU is vile indeed. It's not supposed to be us at all.
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The fact that virtually all the politicans that matter in France (like Sarkozy) are very hostile towards Turkey only makes it more worrying, in the sense that there's no strong counter-voice. It's as if everybody's afraid to say anything positive about Turkey, as if the whole issue is politically poisonous... |
Actually, that's not true. Sarkozy is indeed against it, but we have quite a few pols (Chirac himself) who support Turkey's entry. Actually, most French pols do support Turkey's entry. The problem lies really with the population.
It seems that the population is evolving toward a more positive attitude (37% now support you guys, while 33% did a month ago), but it may be a hiccup of the Statistics.
If you read French, this Comparison between countries is interesting. 25% of the French opponents to Turkey's entry say it is not geographically in Europe (another poll has it at 35%). Whereas in other countries that support Turkey's entry, the fact that Turkey belongs to Europe is the main reason for support 
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In related news, Chirac apparently was the only EU leader (apart from the Greek Cypriot, of course) who did not congratulate Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister, after the summit. Actually, he walked away in haste in the other direction as soon as he saw Erdogan approaching in his direction.  |
I haven't heard about it, but it wouldn't be the first time our dear leader did a blunder like that He walked away just like this when Iraq's Prime Minister came to the EU. And it does belong to his diplomatic style "these countries have missed an opportunity to keep quiet" 
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Many are afraid that masses of Turkish people start flooding the Europe in hopes for better living conditions.
Many are afraid that this will turn Europe into more muslim place.
Many just don't plain lke Turkey and are bit of racist about it as well.
These are all legit reasons, except maybe not the last one..
NO one has the RIGHT to join. It's not a ****ing charity. |
I agree totally. Main reason why people oppose Turkey's membership is because it is muslim and has a different culture, some admit it and some try to veil it in concerns about Turkish economy, minority rights, etc.
About culture, does a Greek have more in common with a Turk, or with a Finn? Serious question, no easy reply.
I agree with Ancyrean that it doesn't make sense to insist on christianity as Europe's common denominator. It should be respect for human rights, freedom of movement and the common market.
Colon put it well. If Turkey will join EU, it will be meeting EU's criteria, not vice versa. So I don't see a reason to worry about that.
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VetLegion
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Ancyrean,
Turkey is a democracy today, from what I understand. But what about the paradox we much hear about, that if Turkey was fully democratic it would become radically muslim through elections?
I remember from a few years ago reading that a leader of some islamic party (the one in power now?) was banned from politics because he wrote a fundamentalist poem in highschool or something.
Is radical islamism for political parties banned by law, or was it banned by the military?
And if there is no threat of military intervention any more (which EU requires, but so does NATO, hmmm), what will stop Turkey from electing some radicals to power?
My questions may sound funny to you, but I think they are quite serious. So far Turkey has been the more advanced muslim country with regards to separation of church and state. But there was always powerful military in the background, making sure of that.
What when it stops being so?
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Atahualpa
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Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
According to the latest polls, it's as high as 70-75%. |
And what are the reasons? Why would they want to be a full member of the european union?
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Once again, what are the minimum parametres of "integration"? If there were, say, 1.000.000 Spaniards moving to Germany, when would they be considered integrated? Would there be a need for them to "integrate" inthe first place? If not, why it's not the same for the Turks? |
The difference is that this wouldn't happen.
Generally I think someone is integrated when under his friends he can list a good number of locals.
OTOH what would you say when e.g. germans discover some nice places in turkey and all buy houses there that they occupy only 2 months during the summer?
Like they did in Mallorca.
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A vast majority came from villages from central-eastern Anatolia in the 1960s, a time when many villages didn't even have electricity and cars were a curiosity for many. They were particularly selected to be as little qualified as possible, since such jobs were the most in demand in the "Wirtschaftswunder" era of Germany. They reacted by clamming up, and were not helped by the Germans to feel at home, treated as "guests" who were supposed to leave when the show's over, so they had even less incentives to even learn the language. |
Well, I don't care if someone is given incentives or not, if you don't speak the language, you can't communicate and you will always be the idiot-worker in the eyes of others. You get no respect if you cannot talk properly.
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As a result, yes they did not "establish a postive image". But the inttelligent, intellectual and progressive-minded European Public did not care to realise Turkey itself changed tremendously since the 1960s. I guess the European image of Turkey is still an extrapolation from the first generation Turks in Europe (enter here "you can marry 4 women in your country?" "you don't look Turkish to me!" etc etc).
European parochialism:
European self-righteousness: |
In the 1960's nobody was even aware of turkey. How should we notice that you've changed when we don't know how you've been.
The general public is really unaware of turkey or its history. In my history lessons the last time I heard something about turkey was up to the point when turks besieged vienna. From that time until now I have a black hole. I didn't even learn about the quarrels between greece and turkey. I only found out later that turkey had occupied greece at some point in history.
My neighbor had been in turkey on holidays in some less touristic place and he had only good words left for the locals there. But he doesn't like those that are living here.
I knew a turk once who was really funny and such. He led a small user platform for better broadband connectivity, that I joined and supported with some money. I didn't even notice that he was turkish until he sent me a picture of him. Perfect german and such and quite smart. He also sent me two great songs by Ibrahim Tatlises! 
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
We got a date day after Turkey. April 2005. the negotiations begin, government claims it can finish them in two years. Membership predicted for 2009. or so. |
Will the prospect of Turkey joining as well make the Croats less eager for joining the EU?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:17
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VetLegion, well come on over 
I think the answer to that one is easy (Greek culture vs. Turkish culture vs. Finnish culture).. Greeks and Turks must be very much closer to each other than to us. Ours is VERY different from the southern european countries. They will come and say they have much differencies with each other, which might be true, but not so much as we have with each other. I guess you could just divide culture into the more northern ones, the center european ones and the southern ones. Well I mean you can't do that like that, but some regions could be outlined to have more similar with each other than with others. Maybe it has something to do with the weather, I don't know. But to me southern cultures seem to be more parallel than up here in the north.
Is it a good thing, sure, I'd be bored if everyone was like us. It's not necessarily a good thing if everyone was like us, it might be a bad thing. We're quite boring, but it suits us. It suits us but it doesn't suit the rest so it's only a good thing. But European cultures per se aren't SO far from each other, I mean comparing to say many Asian or African etc.. they're so different from ours.. even the culture in the more muslim countries, they must be way different. However, I'd still say Greeks and Turks look a lot more alike than we and Greeks do. But then again, Turkey is more advanced nation than other muslim countries like say Iran. In terms of society that is. And in other aspects too, Turkey is pretty advanced... that's why I see it more western than anything these days, and they're closing up on us every day more and more. Soon they'll be fully western if they so choose to be.
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VetLegion
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germanos,
No. We're just a passing station as they head for Germany and Netherlands
In the folk memory, contacts with Turks remain alive in stories, customs and sayings. Calling someone a Turk is sooner an insult than praise. But it was so long ago no real bad feelings are left.
We also have a pragmatic saying: "Turčine, za nevolju kume" which translates roughly as "Turk, in trouble godfather" and means, hell with principles, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
So no, we're not uneasy about Turkish membership, as a people, we simply don't care.
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
VetLegion, well come on over
I think the answer to that one is easy (Greek culture vs. Turkish culture vs. Finnish culture).. Greeks and Turks must be very much closer to each other than to us. |
Ha!
Exactly what I meant! 
I mean you and Greeks are both Christians, but VERY different Christians, and you don't have much other in common except one side of the Euro coins.
quote:
Maybe it has something to do with the weather, I don't know. But to me southern cultures seem to be more parallel than up here in the north. |
I think it does follow climate pretty well. People around mediterranean are quite similar, be it in Croatia, Italy or southern France.
There are differences, but you don't notice them if you are not from here. And I don't think southerners could tell a difference between a Finn, a Swede and a Dane based on appearance or behaviour either.
quote:
Is it a good thing, sure, I'd be bored if everyone was like us. It's not necessarily a good thing if everyone was like us, it might be a bad thing. We're quite boring, but it suits us. |
I don't think you're boring. The main difference I see going north to south is that the further south you go, cheaper talk gets.
Frankly I often don't like that. I don't like it when someone says, "ok, tommorow" and means "ok, some time between tommorow and next week".
But on the other hand, it's not healthy to be too tense either.
One needs a good combo in life
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:17
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Yeah it's definitely more relaxed down there. And some places have siesta etc.. and that has to be because of the warm weather.. you get tired down there, well at least I do or would, so better relax a bit. Unlike in here you don't have those effects, on the contrary you better be moving. So that one I do like, the relaxed thing. Then again southern europeans are famous for being hot tempered . We don't have that thing, we have the 'blood is boiling' thing but it's very different.
But one thing I DO like in here is that talk is not cheap. It goes everywhere, you say what you mean, thus you sometimes don't say anything, because a) you don't have anything to really say or b) it would be insulting. That leads to a place where we are notoriously horrible at things like small talk and uncomfortable talking to people we don't know. But then again the good side is you always know where you're at, and you know it means 16.35 if they say 16.35.. not 16.40, not 17.00 but 16.35 and preferrably 16.30. There's no second guessing. It's clear and set for all parties.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
Isn't Netherlands becoming more hostile to immigration because of the latest incidents?
Sad, because if there was ever something in Europe resembling a melting pot, I guess it would be Netherlands.
I knew that there are many Turks in Germany, but didn't know that.
There are many ex-Yugoslavian Gastarbeiters in Germany too. They didn't integrate too well either, despite being Christian. |
Immigration is a hot issue, but at has been for quite some time. (I'm speaking decades here)
I must say that the murder of Theo van Gogh didn't change that much. The issue has shifted to the issue of extremism.
Personally I don't have major problems with immigrants, and the issue of integration is really a two way street.
You should know that the official designation of a 'foreigner' (the PC term here is 'allochtoon') is anybody who doesn't have two full-blooded Dutch as parents. I guess it is pretty hard to become/feel integrated if you will be designated an 'allochtoon'in any case.
But returning back to the Turks in the Netherlands, a recent study showed that it is expected that among the 'small business owners', the largest group will be the Turks in one or two years.
I'm aware such figures don't tell the full story, but one cannot discard such figures either. (and yes, by definition all the young turks born here, with either one or two parents being immigrants will fall under the category 'Turks' in this survey.)
Regarding Turkey's entry into the EU, I do not hold much opposition. I think Turkey would fit very well within the EU. Turkey shares as much with the EU as Slovakia, the Baltic states and the future members of Rumania, Bulgaria and Croatia.
In fact, I think Turkey is one of the examples that Islam and Western Enlightment are not mutually exclusive, and it is a bless for Europe that such a state wants to join us. If the west is to spread Enlightment and combat muslim extremism, one of the best courses of action would be to welcome those muslims that share the views of Enlightment.
The EU was formed to prevent a WWIII through economic cooperation. If the EU is too cling to that incentive (as I think it should), then the EU should try very hard to get Turkey aboard.
And as I argued earlier, many Turks already live in Europe, and as far as I know they have not caused major trouble in the last 40 years. I don't see why they would turn nasty all of a sudden when their motherland has become part of the EU.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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.
 Attachment: ottoman map.gif
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
Ancyrean,
Turkey is a democracy today, from what I understand. But what about the paradox we much hear about, that if Turkey was fully democratic it would become radically muslim through elections?
I remember from a few years ago reading that a leader of some islamic party (the one in power now?) was banned from politics because he wrote a fundamentalist poem in highschool or something.
Is radical islamism for political parties banned by law, or was it banned by the military?
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Basically, fundamentalist religious parties bent on establishing sharia etc are banned, just like Nazism is banned in Germany. This is the law of the land and previously it was the constitutional court that enforced it by closing down such parties. The army is there as the ultimate stick, as a reminder that all dreams of an Islamic state are utopiae.
The members of the closed-down party then appealed to the European Court on the grounds that their right to express themselves and form political parties are violated, but the court quickly dismissed them by saying you have to first accept the rules of democracy and commit to its continuance to benefit from its freedoms. 
Yes you are right, the current Prime Minister of ours was a firebrand preacher and the Mayor of Istanbul some 10 years ago, and the poem reciting was only the final drop on a full glass on his account. He spent some months in jail, disappeared from the political scene for years and when he came back he was a moderate who denounced sharia and praised the supremacy of secularism. 
quote:
And if there is no threat of military intervention any more (which EU requires, but so does NATO, hmmm), what will stop Turkey from electing some radicals to power?
My questions may sound funny to you, but I think they are quite serious. So far Turkey has been the more advanced muslim country with regards to separation of church and state. But there was always powerful military in the background, making sure of that.
What when it stops being so? |
The answer is the legal system, the laws and the constitutional court. Also there's the fact that fundamentalist Islam never commanded the support of more than a marginal section of the society. The EU and the gradual rise of life standards are only to reinforce this situation.
Islamic revolution a la Iran is surreal in the Turkish context, but wouldn't you agree that many with limited knowledge/interest to distinguish between Turkey and some other disagreeable examples in the Muslim world would find this hard to differentiate?
Of course, if one would argue that a country's being Christian is the only ultimate guarantee that no Islamic revolution take place, then there's no way Turkey would meet the requirements of this proposition.
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19-12-2004 14:00
. Chicks would dig it! 
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