23-12-2004 20:58									#31
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IIRC this is a conquest game - so there is no need to found any colonies - unless of course they pop out of huts.

I would send the Frigate off with two Warriors and hope for the best - ideally it would be a Warrior & a Caravan - but I don't think we can afford that luxury. We need to move on this swiftly as once Musks are commonplace the utility of our Frigate as a city emptying monster becomes limited, hopefully it will rapidly become vet and then we can take down non-vet Musks fairly easily - an attractive variation on this theme is to send a Warrior & a Diplomat - if we can afford the extra 20 shields - find a nice juicy coastal city - empty it - capture with the Warrior and then immediately evacuate the Warrior - the bad guys recapture and restock - then we bribe the city (half-price - as we are the previous tenants) together with its hopefully robust defending units - then we can hold the place .... all this in an ideal world with a following wind of course.

Stu

	23-12-2004 20:59									#32
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Minor snag to the above - if we use my save we don't have Writing .... bah humbug!

	24-12-2004 08:12									#33
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-Ummm - Stu, how do you suggest dealing with the English Chariot? I suppose one could surround it with warriors, and when it declares war then maybe 3 or 4 of them could kill it if it isn't fortified. Any better ideas?

Possibly set taxes higher for a few turns? The Mongols have had a good amount of time for the holy flowers and we need a van or two quickly.

I like the whack 'em now strategy.

	24-12-2004 10:19									#34
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If this is bloodlust, I would think either MPE or STWA would be the 2nd WoW.

	24-12-2004 11:38									#35
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There's a basic problem with the frigate war approach: a frigate's attack strength is 4, and a fortified musketeer's defense strength is 4.5. We wouldn't get far that way. If we're sure a civ has no guns, the frigate scouring will be highly effective, though.

As far as capturing, surrendering, and then bribing an AI city: if I understand correctly, you only get to bribe at half price if the city was ORIGINALLY yours. Is that wrong?

Stu, my own shield policy is more or less what you describe, although I will sometimes work a square with two food, one shield, and one trade rather than a forest square. And Grigor and I do have more gold than you, but nowhere near enough to account for your superior shield total. I wish I knew how to do that.

Here are the numbers I cited above, though hardly any "maths":

SG Grigor Debeest
cities 8 7 8
citizens 14 14 12
techs 9 8 7
food 83 90 90
gold 13 96 73
beakers 115 0 36
shields 213 94 84
excess food 20 18 19
net gold & sci 17 29 30
net shields 27 25 25
units 9 11 10
science cost (tech# * ?) 12 12 15

I agree with Jrabbit -- MPE or STWA should probably be our next Wonder. Moreover, if we're not going to build a ton of cities, we might even want to switch over from HG (I realize that not building a ton of cities might be sacrilegious for you, Stu).

We might be able to get the chariot to go home just by asking, since it's within our city limits. That would risk provoking war, though. Alternatively, we'd need a stronger attacking unit -- frigate, horse, whatever. If we don't have attackers and don't want to risk war, I think we should just hope it wanders off for awhile.

Yes, to whomp musketeers we need vet dragoons, or vet ironclads. Non-vet dragoons are barely stronger than fortified musketeers, and the cost of war that way is very high. That's why I think a policy of peaceful building may be necessary to catch up. Depends on who's got what techs, though -- and we'll want MP for that info.

	24-12-2004 22:46									#36
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Wow!! How did I get all those extra shields? I was not aware that I was doing anything particularly clever ...

Don't forget that at least one Dip has been killed - not that that makes a significant difference...

Stu

	24-12-2004 22:54									#37
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I don't know about sacrilege - I tend to play an ICSish game, but i feel that the Gardens takes away the threat of imminent revolt in all cities - particularly any newly captured cities -- my take on this game is that we will build perhaps another 4 - 6 cities on the home island and then acquire them from the opposition --- your analysis about Musks is of course correct, but it is unlikely that any AI city will have more than a single Musk - and more likely that it will have a Phalanx and an Archer - this seems from my experience to be the calssic AI build path.

	24-12-2004 22:55									#38
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Hope the above made some sense - Stu pissed again ...

	25-12-2004 04:50									#39
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So it looks like we are homing in on diverse strategies again.

1) Stu builds his holy flowers and kicks AI butt with frigates.

2) Grigor builds HG and MPE and explores, possibly after Dips

3) Debeest bypasses HG and builds MPE and STWA.

4) J Rabbit turns whatever policy he wants to upside down.

	25-12-2004 04:51									#40
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I want Ironclads!!!

(Grigor has joined the Git in the wine brigade)

	25-12-2004 15:16									#41
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Merry Christmas Team MGE!

Stu

	26-12-2004 20:30									#42
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Try the below for a shield analysis - much the same relative positions, but the absolute numbers make more sense to me:

Attachment: stats.gif
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

	26-12-2004 23:19									#43
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I have started play with Stu's 2000BC save, with the plan of letting the Mongols build HG and then capturing it.

	27-12-2004 09:40									#44
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What an interesting and difficult game. Here is the log:

spoiler(highlight to read): SG(1) game accepted Plan: Survive the English Chariot 2 wonders by 1000AD. Build MPE. Let Mongols build HG and then capture Karakorum. Prepare to capture Zimbabwe and LW (Guns?) Collect Vans for SoL Conquring force: 2 Frigates, 1 Galleon, 4 vet ellies. Tech path: Trade (next turn), HB, [trade for Literacy and Myst] Poly, Phil, Mono. Then trade for IW, Eng, Inv, research Phys, Steam Engine. Too Slow! Wri=>Lit=>Phy [Inv] =>Steam - that's OK. Trade=>[Rep} Bank {Inv] =>Demo &The Lady . That's OK too Need HG in Caesarea for celebration? Exchew. Make 2 trade routes from Caesarea for advances after 1500. I need HB and Poly for defence, unless Guns is stealable from Zulus. They will want writing. 8 Cities - goal: 16 by 1000AD. Build mostly settlers in the East. 2000 Surround English Chariot. 1950 Trade=HB (132). English: demand Trade - no - WAR. warrior kills Chariot! First problem solved, except for the Explorer. 1900* Frigate sets sail W. 1850 Lugdunum founded. Excellent 4-whale colony site found. 1800 Mongol Isle found 1750 Mongols: War. Frigate attacks warrior=>Vet 1700* 1650 HB=>Poly. Lutetia founded 1600 Samarkand found. Attack. Zulu Trireme appears. 1550 Samarkand emptied. Warrior captures Samarkand. (86g) Take Myst for Phil over IW. Frigate in port to recover. 1500* Zulu Trireme immolates on Warrior... Mongols: give Trade. CF. Peace, withdraw. 1450 1400 Horse finally kills English Explorer, ending the English Threat. Monglols to build HG nxt - here is the crux of my plan 1350 Karakorum builds HG. Byzantium founded 1300* Hut: Musketeers. Somebody has Guns... Frigate Healed 1250 Zimbabwe completes LW. Poly=>Writing Mongols: War 1200 Caesarea builds MPE Zulus: Mon, 6Cities 179g, Guns, Inv, IW, Maps, Mas, WC. Res Pots Germans: Des, 2C, 78g res Wri Egypt: rep, 1C, 279g. Feud, Lit, Maps, Mas, Math, Rep, WC, Wri.. res Seaf Chinese: Rep, 4C, 360g Lit, Maps, Mas, Rep, Seaf, Wri res Myst Englisg: Mon, 4C, 187g Maps, Seaf, Wheel res WC Mongols: Mon, 7C, 531g IW, Maps, WC, Wheel res Mas -Capture unnamed Mongol city (21g, Maps). Vet Frigate takes out Musket in Ulundi (Guns) Germans: Give lots of cheap tech, peace, Maps. Karakorum found. Egypt: trade for Lit, Rep, Writing, peace, maps. Chinese: give Trade. Peace, trade for Seaf, share maps. Ulundi found. Vet Frigate takes out Musket. Ulundi captured (34g, Guns) Zulus: give Nav, Rep for peace. they withdraw. Brundisium founded. 1150 res Phil. Take out English Explorer. Frigate=>Vet. 1100*London found 1050 London conquered (wheel) 1000 Galleon for England sets sail. Hut: Elephant. Zip the save. 16Cities. HG still not captured. Many turns till Philosophy, but Mono and Physics should both be available. A caravan to a foreign potentat should pay well. The granary in London sould be sold for a musket in Ulundi. A Rich Position.

	27-12-2004 09:43									#45
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...and the 1000BC save:

Attachment: gf_b1000.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	28-12-2004 10:10									#46
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I found this a frustrating turnset. Although there were successes along with the failures, I'll be surprised if mine is the best game. Here's my save and log, and then I'll take a look at Grigor's.

spoiler(highlight to read): 1950 English chariot wanders; learn trade, choose to research horseback riding next in order to defend ourselves; frigate loads warrior from Caesarea and heads for nothern land; settler heads for unexplored south 1900 find Mongol frigate 1850 English demand trade, I give it to them, they refuse to ally; Mongol frigate wanders 1800 settler from Pisa heads south 1650 build Lugdunum to use fish and peat 1600 learn horseback riding, research mapmaking next so we can trade maps 1500 build Lutetia; island to the north is modest size and uninhabited 1450 English begin Colossus; population 300K 1400 Mongols have nearly completed HG, but I buy the last 19 shields; I contact English, refuse to give them magnetism, demand that they leave, they declare war, I kill chariot 1350 build Hanging Gardens, Mongols switch to Sun Tzu 1300 Zulus have nearly completed Leo; learn mapmaking, researching writing next 1250 Zulus complete Leo and switch to Colossus; build Byzantium 1200 pay Mongols 50g but they won’t trade tech or ally; English demand magnetism but when I refuse, they still make peace; I choose not to trade them magnetism when they offer seafaring; find Zulus, they demand navigation, I refuse, they declare war 1100 Mongols nearly complete Sun Tzu; population 400K

	28-12-2004 10:31									#47
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Wow! I'm learning from this game. In particular, I'm learning that I need to be more confident. The AI, even with its superior tech and development, is so helpless. I must learn to imitate your aggressiveness.

	28-12-2004 21:18									#48
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OK - her'e my offering ...

1950 = Trade -> Horse; Ravenna trains Settler;
1750 = Lugdunum
1600 = Hlobane captured 19g + Gunpowder
1550 = Horseback Riding -> Writing
1450 = Horse dies against Barb Archer outside Caesarea
1400 = Barb Archer immolates against Caesarea - Warrior becomes vet; English refuse to trade tech and don't take kindly to demand for tribute - war - Horse kills Chariot and becomes vet; Horse kills Explorer; Lutetia founded;
1350 = Rush last few shields of the Flowers to frustrate the Mongrels
1300 = Hanging Gardens - Mongrels change to Colossus; Barb King - 100g;
1350 = Swap Gunpowder for Map Making with English
1300 = Writing -> Literacy
1200 = Hut 50g;
1100 = Ulundi, 29g + Masonry captured;
1000 = Caesarea builds Library and Settler b's in to make size 4

So I've founded two cities captured two cities acquired six techs -- how does that rate??

Stu

Attachment: ca_b1000.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	28-12-2004 22:13									#49
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Haven't viewed maps, but based on logs, I really like Grigor's turnset. Aggressive growth, really increased the baseline, and MPE seems really useful in this game.

Must focus on a good happy WOW (capture or build) to grow, or STWA to conquer.

	29-12-2004 08:25									#50
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Well, I'm actually sort of relieved to see that Stu's game, while substantially better than mine again, isn't as overwhelmingly superior as Grigor's. I had thought I was getting the hang of this game, but you guys are both schooling me. (Although it's not ONLY because you play better than me. Howcum someone built Sun Tzu in my game, but not in either of yours?)

Grigor's game illustrates that I was right to consider bypassing HG for MPE. Now why didn't I stick to that idea?

Strategic thoughts will come later.

	29-12-2004 20:23									#51
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I wish somebody had built SunTzu - it's much cheaper to capture than to build

Stu - I am having trouble openting your zipped save. Could you post an unzipped version? Or perhaps JRabbit can advise me on Mac-related zip openings.

I really enjoyed dealing with the English chariot, which had a problem-like aspect to it. I immobilized it and killed it with an extra warrior. It took another 600 years to take out the explorer.

The immediate objective in my save is capturing HG in Karakorum. There is a vet musket in Samarkand, and dollars to doughnuts says the AI will attack unsuccessfully out of Karakorum, perhaps even emptying the city, if you fortify it and stack an extra unit with it.

On the other hand, the biggest problem in my save is dealing with the Zulu who are trying to retake Ulundi. I haven't found Hlobane yet. Zimbabwe has LW, and there are plenty of warriors to upgrade on the home island.

	29-12-2004 20:36									#52
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Debeest, your game is not at all bad. You developed the home island very thoroughly, and have many shields toward caravans. You are on track to, for instance, build 2 more wonders very quickly. Also, your game is at 1100BC instead of 2000, so there are another 2 turns to go.

Your save could catch up to mine within 5 turns.

I was fortunate in that my first frigate became a vet after only one minor skirmish against a Mongol warrior.

	30-12-2004 13:23									#53
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Thanks, Grigor, but really you're way ahead of me. MPE has made a huge difference, both in techs and in map-swapping, and I'm not ready to get it really soon. And you've been out seizing cities already, while I explored northward instead and didn't find anyone even though I could see there was land. Maybe the exploration factor was luck, and the frigate going vet was luck, and certainly it was a fluke if your first warrior killed the English chariot -- but those things don't make the real difference. You did very very well.

I had no trouble with Stu's zipped save. I notice that sometimes Apolyton zips/saves have an extra .php on the filename, and I take that off before I work with it. Maybe that's it?

	30-12-2004 14:50									#54
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debeest - I took no chances with the English chariot: I moved two warriors out from Caesarea and one from the river town southwest. Three warriors against a chariot is not luck any more.

	30-12-2004 16:23									#55
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OK, I finally unloaded Stu's game. It is good, with a really strong shield production (caravan-building) in the home empire.

I like mine better.

If Karakorum can be captured without destroying HG, we should be better off. The assault against Zimbabwe (LW) needs to be carefully prepared.

	31-12-2004 12:59									#56
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Grigor, I just meant that if your first warrior succeeded in killing the chariot, that was a fluke -- the chances of winning are only 29%, IIRC. But actually, I'm not so sure that even your three warriors gave you any reason for confidence. Let's say the first one loses, as it usually would. Say the chariot goes vet. Suddenly those other warriors face extremely high odds (strength 1:1.5, which means round-by-round probabilities of 1:2, except that the ratio is even worse -- 7:17 -- because ties go to the defense). If your first warrior had lost and the chariot had gone vet, the other two warriors' chances weren't good.

But that was a tiny factor in the clear superiority of your game.

I pretty much agree with your analysis for the next turnset. We'll have no important Wonders available to build any time soon, whereas LW and HG will be available -- so let's go get 'em. HG first, because the Mongols have guns and can put up a good fight. I'd stop building galleons and just build gunboats -- they can carry two units each, which is more than enough. I'd switch some of the warriors and elephants to frigates, too. Let's use our superiority while we've got it.

Can anybody tell me why Trondheim shows up in the Find City screen and reveals its location, even though we've never mapped it?

	06-01-2005 10:41									#57
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Are you guys hard at work on the next turnset, starting from Grigor's 1000 BC save? I haven't started yet, but are we agreed that his is best?

	06-01-2005 13:21									#58
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I'm buried under marking - unlikely to get to it this week.

Grigor's achievements clearly surpass mine, but he has a serious enemy at his gate and he might be overextended ...

I will however, bow to the majority decision - Grigor's it is.

Stu

	06-01-2005 17:54									#59
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reminder - each turnset is 20 turns, so your next one goes to 500bc, I believe.

	14-01-2005 00:34									#60
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bump...

The 2.42 team has posted their 1000bc saves, so they have almost caught up with team MGE. Your 500bc saves will be due in a week. Notice Elephant's proposal about summaries in the main thread, and let me know if anyone objects.