17-12-2004 06:53									#1
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OK, our team is complete. I think we will need this thread so that we are not tempted to read the other team's posts.

I suppose the first thing to do now is to pick which continuation to use.

SG(1) has a great start with 4 cities, (including the capital at size 2 because he intelligently built the size 1 settler before popping the hut for a tribe), 34g, a roaded silk, and an extra tech. But the downside is that the mongols have already discovered us (with a frigate!?) and are hostile already. And also, pottery is not on the way to Trade.

Grigor has 4 weaker cities all on rivers, less gold, a roaded silk, and a straight shot to trade. It looks possible to get Monarchy by 2850 for an instant revolution. That neds to be checked.

Debeest has 2 cities, with a settler and another in the oven. Howver, his start won't get us to Monarchy by 2850bc.

Does this look to anybody else like that succession game a couple years ago where the AI wiped out the Apolytoners in about 2500BC the first time? Maybe we should be a little more afraid.

	17-12-2004 13:32									#2
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You are absolutely right Grigor - I followed my Civ instincts when I chose Pot - reckoning that it would take two techs Iwhich we have next turn] to extract Curr from the Mongrels - then a dash for Trade whilst the Flowers are building --- but overnight when I thought on it, I should have taken Magnetism - at this stage of the game a Frigate with a Warrior inside could probably capture every spare tech on the board.
Things are'n't as bad as they might seem - the Mongrels 'only' have Bronze, Currency, Mysticism & Magnetism - so Peaster has been playing games with the starting techs.

With many apologies for the hindsight suggests cretinous decision to take Pottery - I still nominate my game for continuation, I think it offers more possibilities.

Stu

	18-12-2004 06:40									#3
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I am OK with using the SG save. It does indeed maximize our possibilities.

Does anybody think the frigate will stick around long enough to bribe? How much might it cost? If it is possible, one suggestion is to try for Writing after Monarchy and save pennies to try to bribe the frigate. If that is possible it must be the best play.

Otherwise, build the Gardens after the temple in the capital and run to Trade. The Mongols will attack us though, sooner or later.

Perhaps we should try to come up with three totally different strategies and each try one, just in case one of the more dsperate ones is successful?

	18-12-2004 06:57									#4
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Yup I'm fairly certain that the Frigate is stuck there for the duration - so going for witing & bribing the little b*ggar seems favouite for me...

Stu - pissed as a fart on this Friday night

	18-12-2004 08:34									#5
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I hope you don't mind if I lurk a bit and pop in from time to time.

quote: Originally posted by Grigor Perhaps we should try to come up with three totally different strategies and each try one, just in case one of the more dsperate ones is successful?

I was wondering if this might come up. IMHO it could help your team's chances, and trying different ideas will make the game more interesting. But taking unusual risks isn't good practice, is it?

quote: pissed as a fart

Drinking? (my redneck friends use "pissed" for "angry") And, could I ask what "Scouse Gits" means?

	18-12-2004 08:41									#6
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I've just had a moment to look at my teammates' saves, and it's clear that SG's is the best of the three. The cost of my failure to buy a size-1 settler is starkly revealed. I will post about future considerations once I go participate in our Christmas double feature, It's a Wonderful Life/Life of Brian. You should consider it too.

	18-12-2004 08:41									#7
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Peaster - your ignorance of ancient slang betrays your callow youth. In us oldsters' time, we all knew what "pissed" meant...

	18-12-2004 17:48									#8
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Scouse (adj) of or pertaining to the city of Liverpool
Git (n) disreputable person

Stu

	19-12-2004 22:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor Peaster - your ignorance of ancient slang betrays your callow youth. In us oldsters' time, we all knew what "pissed" meant...

[Peaster consults his dictionary to see if he's been insulted...and likes the "youth" part, even if not quite accurate ].

I was thinking the two teams would proceed at the same pace, but maybe there's no good reason. After debeest has a chance to post, your team can play the next turn. You can play as fast/slow as you like, as long as you are ahead of team 2.42.

	20-12-2004 03:01									#10
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OK, here are my thoughts about the next 1000 years.

We're one beaker short of monarchy, so we can't have an instant revolution. We must remember to revolt in 2900.

The key question is our tech path. If we are alone on an island, as it looks as if we could be, then early wide contact is even more important than I had thought earlier. We must have trade, for Marco Polo, or else mapmaking. I vote for trade because we'll need it ASAP anyway for building Wonders.

The other critical question is survival. Most likely we could easily be wiped out by any other civ, and even a barb invasion could be critically damaging. Other than maintaining friendly relations, the best defense is a good offensive unit, so horseback riding is a high priority. Also, we should try to keep 50-75g on hand at all times in order to be able to keep barbs from sacking our size-1 and size-2 cities.

What to do when we meet other civs? Submit! Give them anything they want. But what if they want us to declare war against civs we're at peace with? Better to refuse, in spite of the risk.

What to build? Settlers and cities. Until we can build offensive units, or Wonder caravans, there's nothing else worth bothering with. Just enough warriors for martial law. Boats would probably have to wait even if we had mapmaking. With monarchy we can go to eight cities without affecting happiness, and more with martial law. For now, while we're still largely isolated, use the time to prepare a strong base. Roads will be particularly important, both for defensive mobility and because our terrain provides for little but food -- and there's a striking lack of specials. (Without Hutfinder, can we locate hidden specials?)

Not everything is against us. Note that we're already "weak," so we've passed one civ already. Tech will be easy to acquire, because we're getting the bonus for being behind. We should be able to catch up fairly fast, especially since the AI usually doesn't build a lot of cities. And it's not necessarily bad that the Mongols have found us -- assuming that we go to Supreme, that's who we'll want to be gifting techs to eventually.

However, I think it would be extremely dangerous to bribe the frigate. Sure, it would get us a powerful unit that we couldn't otherwise build -- but I strongly advise against irritating the already-aggressive hostile power that already knows where we live. And we can only bribe that one, but they can build lots more......

The idea of deliberately pursuing a variety of courses does seem good. If you've only got one shot at a game, you want to follow what seems like the "best" course. But with three different attempts, it's a terrific opportunity to explore new ideas and have a chance to compare different methods over a short but meaningful period. Since it doesn't matter if one or two methods fail, let's go for it. I think if we all pursue roughly the same course, our "best" game won't be that much different from the others anyway; but if we go wild, we could find something that's really good.

Shall we identify three broad paths for the three of us to take in the next turnset?

	20-12-2004 07:24									#11
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Great analysis debeest!

I think you should go for the safety first version, because you believe in it, and because we may be wiped out by our bribe-the-frigate strategy. But I would counsel against too many (any!) roads, unless you have excess settlers, which I don't anticipate by 2000BC. We already are connected by the river systm and the roads just slow down city placement. This doesn't seem to be Deity level, so maybe the temple in the capital is unnecessary and should be either a barracks or a granary??

SG and I are going to duke it out for who gets to try the bribe-the-frigate strategy. I have no idea if it is even financially possible. If it is, the decision to go north or south will lead to very different outcomes. Perhaps we can both try and agree to go different directions.

My bribe strategy would have th following tech path:
Writing, HB, Poly, then the trade techs.

Meanwhile, the capital would start on HG after the temple. Hmm, maybe switch production now... Gold is a serious priority, so maximizing arrows and turning down science after Writing is a possibility. I am a little worried about the warlike mongol attitude, but maybe we can buy them off with Monarchy if we avoid unnecessary contact with them (one necessary time will be with the Dip...) Once we have the frigate, we can load it with dips and steal techs from the AI until we get some extra tribes from huts.

As you can see, I am having difficulty forming a cogent and complete plan.

Help will be much appreciated.

	20-12-2004 18:36									#12
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Hey guys ...
You both seem to have missed the tech list that I got from the Mongrels - they have (that we don't) Bronze, Currency, Myst & Mag - we will next turn have two techs that they don't Code or CB - I forget which I traded - it's in the log & Monarchy - with a following wind we can trade both of those for one of theirs - so we can shortcut Trade by getting Currency or go for broke & get Mag.

With Magnetism we don't need Writing - it looks as if each of the Civs has got just one or two higher level techs - someone has Invention for example since they started the Shop on my watch. A Frigate can easily take out any pre-gunpowder defenders in coastal cities and a Warrior can then take the city and a tech - even if we don't hold the city we can sell something and abandon without real loss -- this seems to me to be a seriously viable strategy either with Magnetism & our own Frigates or with the one ex-Mongrel addition to our seapower.

My abject apologies if you have considered the above and already rejected it in favour of your posted plans -- but it seems a damn good way forward to me...

Stu

	20-12-2004 21:54									#13
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Yes, I didn't consider the Mongol tech list. It does seem that BW is not necessary if we can trade with the currently hostile Mongols. I considered getting techs by stealing them with dips since a hostile AI will often take 2 techs just to get to uncooperative and we cannot afford war until we have the frigate bribed, right?

But it seems we now have three incipient plans: debeest's safety first plan, my writing-and-bribing plan (with updated tech tree), and Stu's daring diplomacy and rule the seas with magnetism plan. Are we rady to play yet?

	21-12-2004 08:38									#14
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I like it. It's three different plans, and that will be fun. (Although it sounds as if both of you are on a writing-and-bribing course, I'm sure it will diverge substantially after that.)

Those who bribe the frigate should be sure to trade with the Mongrels beforehand. And since Peaster indicated that he thinks it's OK to use knowledge from discarded games, the two of you should agree on two different directions to explore.

You're right, Grigor; I want roads, but I probably won't get to them in this turnset.

I'm inclined to convert from temple-building to a barracks. I have a feeling we're going to need to buff up our defenses soon.

One last thought: you guys should prepare ahead of time for the possibility that the frigate wanders off before you can learn how to write and commission a diplomat. Whole new gameplan at that point (I think Stu gets first dibs on trading for magnetism and following the similar path, though).

I'll start on my inoffensive course soon. Advice welcome.

	21-12-2004 20:30									#15
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I think from my remembrance of Stu's games that the temple is merely for selling off and providing bribing funds. That's what I will use it for, in any case. Should you wish to continue a civic build, Barracks is a good call, but perhaps a granary even better. Or possibly a typo raised to a new level: grabnary...

	21-12-2004 22:11									#17
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Checking in.

	21-12-2004 23:26									#18
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Are you joining us -Jrabbit??

spoiler(highlight to read): After a brief, but successful war with the Mongrels - they chose to immolate a couple of Warriors against my rivered capital, we have Magnetism! The English kindly donated Navigation, whilst our eggheads beavered away and get Trade next turn the hard way. We have eight cities (2 at size 3) a Settler and on the turn a second Settler and a Frigate. On the down-side - the Mongrels started the Gardens in 2700 - but I reckon we are well favourite to win that race now that a couple of Caravans can be rushed. A fun turnset -- how did you guys fare?

Stu

	22-12-2004 01:22									#19
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Have downloaded. Will try to grab some time tonight.

Time limit for our group's next submitted .sav, please?

	22-12-2004 01:26									#20
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Rabbitman - just running scared here - my 2000 save has been downloaded by someone, but so has the 3000 zip I left in the other thread - you do have the correct (3000) start?

Stu

	22-12-2004 11:20									#21
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I played it out tonight and felt that I'd done a passable job, until I looked at your spoiler, Stu. My log follows below. (How do you do the spoiler text?)

















3000 BC, starting from SG’s game:
2950 Chinese are about to complete Pyramids; we get monarchy (choose horseback next, for three main reasons: for immediate defense, and because I think it won’t be available next time but mapmaking will, and for a second rush-building row; we shouldn’t need bronzeworking at all if we can trade for currency)
2900 Beijing builds Pyramids; Neapolis grows to size 2 and our population reaches 100K; revolution
2850 Mr. Caesar is crowned King
2750 barracks in Caesarea, settlers in Cumae (head south toward whales)
2700 settlers in Neapolis
On further reflection, I realize that once we get horseback riding and then trade for currency (I want to study one tech before trading), trade will come up in the rotation – so we won’t want to choose mapmaking that turn. Oh well.
Also, on further reflection, I conclude that we’re missing too many specials for it to be chance – so I use Hutfinder and verify that in most of the land spots where there should be specials, there is grassland instead. Interesting.
2650 Pompeii size 2
2500 horseback riding (choose mapmaking next – and on further further reflection, I realize that if I had traded for currency BEFORE horseback, then trade WOULD have been available! D-oh!!!); so now I contact the Mongols, and they demand 50 gp, so I pay off almost all our cash, and they won’t trade or ally, so all our planning for currency vs. magnetism is for naught; plus, I determine that we are indeed alone on an island
2400 build Pisae
2350 settlers in Caesarea build Ravenna
2300 settlers in Pompeii; build Hispalis
2200 settlers in Cumae
2150 Mongols begin Hanging Gardens; build Viroconium
2100 just realized we’re not getting any science bonus, and our free techs are counting as learned techs
2050 mapmaking (choose polytheism next rather than bronzeworking – either we’ll get currency elsewhere, or we’ll be a long time getting to trade whether I start on it now or not, but this way we’ll have elephants)

Attachment: wf-2000.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	22-12-2004 13:12									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

(spoiler)
text
(\spoiler)
but with square brackets of course.

I seem to be having a lot of ?luck? with meeting people - we have yet to see whether this is good luck or bad joss!

Given that you have yet to meet the benificent English - by the way they are my bogey Civ - they always seem to screw me up right thoroughly in my ordinary games - this looks like a pretty good turnset - although I would not have made the tech choices that you did.
I guess you made another Settler from Caesarea - I kept the Temple with a view to growing Caesarea to size 8 asap - probably by b-ing in a couple of Settlers in the next turnset ... for me, money is not the key problem, it's getting sufficient shields together for all the building we need - but each to their own.

Stu

	22-12-2004 17:29									#23
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I considered this turnset a disastrous failure. I got Writing, HB, and Poly but failed to find the frigate. I did manage to sleaze a few more cities in.

--Spoiler Log--

Plan: Tech path: Mon, Wri, HB, Poly. ICS settlers. Temple in capital, then HG. Bribe Frigate.

3000
2950 Mon=>Wri (9)
2900* Revolution
2850 Gov: Monarchy
2750 Cumae: Settlers. Caesarea: Temple =>HG
2650 Pisae founded
2600 Ravenna founded. Writing soon.
2550 Wri=>HB
2500* Pompeii: Dip
2400 Hey, no frigate!
2300* Mongols: demand 100g - WAR.
2250 HB=>Poly
2200 Frigate reappears and kills Dip. Mongol warrior attacks Caesarea and dies.
2050 Barbs land near Caesarea, 1 square too far for Dip. Horse kills both.
2000 Poly=>Maps. Hispalis founded

Attachment: gf_b2000.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	22-12-2004 18:30									#24
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Sounds more like poor luck than poor management to me, Grigor.
Hopefully the rabbitman will post soon and then we can start the RCC...

Cheers, Stu

	22-12-2004 20:45									#25
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Go ahead and RCC, folks. I was unable to play last night. Right now, I have holiday honey-do's looming heavily. I will join when I can, but it won't be this round.

Will lurk and read for now.

	22-12-2004 22:42									#26
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I thought my plan was a bust because it leaves the civ long on the wrong techs and is way too far from Trade. In my defence, I will get Maps in 5 turns and can then go out and get techs from the mongols, whom I think are on the island directly north of us. And the existence of 2 dips does give some play.

Debeest's save allows us to build a trireme right away, but I don't know what to load on it.

I like Stu's save again, as there are more possibilities with Magnetism, Navigation, and Trade than my save with Writing and Poly. or Debeests with Map Making. Unless somebody thinks that Magnetism and/or Currency can be extorted from the Mongols. I do have some gold in the coffers, thinking that I needed to save up to buy a frigate... OTOH, we all seem to have done a good job on settlers.

	23-12-2004 00:38									#27
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Well, I guess I have to vote for my own game ...
Albeit may be not to everyone's taste

Stu

	23-12-2004 13:48									#28
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I've been comparing the games, based on:

number of techs
number of cities
number of citizens
net shields per turn
net gold and science per turn
excess food per turn
accumulated shields
accumulated beakers and gold
accumulated food
existing units
city improvements
Wonders
AI civs contacted
science bonus/penalty

I realize there are some automatic correlations (e.g., between number of citizens and per-turn accruals). But I'm struck by how similar our current three games are to one another. The real differences are in AI contacts (Stu's game is best), acquired techs (Stu's is best), accumulated shields (I'm very puzzled why Stu's is so much better than Grigor's and mine), and science cost (I'm paying a lot more than you two, apparently because my power rating is lower -- although I'm not sure that's because of a significantly weaker position). Finally, the differences among our techs are important, with Stu apparently having managed somehow to get good techs from the Mongols.

Obviously Stu's game is best again.

	23-12-2004 15:38									#29
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For what it's worth - I am very conservative with shields - I feel that at this early stage of the game their management is crucial - therefore I follow this strategy:
Once a city reaches size 2 I max out its shields - with arrows a secondary and food a tertiary consideration & I carefully consider all opportunities to rush a row of shields and generally do so.

I'm interested in your maths - can you post some figures.

As far as the Mongrels are concerned - they declared war at my first contact (this turnset) and the Warrior from the Frigate promptly destroyed itself at Caesarea - they robustly refused further contact until they landed a single Warrior from a Galleon - which did the same thing. After that they were pussycats and begged me for Navigation, which I gave them in exchange for Magnetism - just in time to swap my nearly finished Caravel for a Frigate.

The obvious downside of my game is that bloody English Chariot - which landed with an Explorer from a Caravel - I'm seriously tempted to use my Frigate to blow it away.

As far as Geography is concerned - the English came from the East & the Mongrels from the West - I have no evidence that they are to our North as one of you has suggested.

The Zulus appear to be the most advanced civ - they started with Invention after all - and must therefore be our first target - with luck we can take a coastal city without actually declaring war and grab a good defensive tech (they may well have Gunpowder by now) unfortunately we have no clue as to where they may lie. Also, a Frigate is not certain of victory against a Musk, but with luck they may be relying on City Walls.

Any other ideas or insights most welcome

Stu

	23-12-2004 20:47									#30
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I usually follow the same shield strategy, but this turnset I saved my pennies and did no pre-rush-buying. It will be a long winter in a hot place before I get snookered into that strategy again.

I am interested in our Wonder strategy. By 1000 BC we should expect to have 2 wonders at least. We have HG a-building, and a couple of vans should finish it off. MPE is also useful, especially if restarts are on, which I think they are. LH is already expired (!) but Magellan is always fun to have. With luck the Zulus will build LW for us.
Should we go for MPE before trying to wipe out the Zulus and build up the home front?

Some other questions in no particular order: If the Zulus indeed have guns, what can we whomp them with? Will we need vet dragoons? Or will crooks be enough, perhaps with Clads? Perhaps we need about 1500 years of science and trade to get through the tech tree. Or should we aggressively explore and enlarge our civ, improving science that way? Do we send out settlers on our frigates or just war units? Or can we do both guns and butter? This is the part of the game in which I tend to have trouble formulating a cogent plan, so RCC is more than welcome.